Air Wisconsin: Not for Newbies
03-14-2018, 09:29 AM
#41
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Joined APC: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,948
Originally Posted by StrykerB21
Kind of a catch 22. Don't come to awac because the company can't staff. If we could attract the caliber pilot that will actually work hard and study a few hours every night instead of being argumentative with the instructors and drinking at D2 every night our pass rate would be fantastic.
The training departments job isn't to staff the airline though. No one should be coming here or any airline for that matter thinking they can just breeze right through the training. Unfortunately thats the kind of people we've been hiring as of late. Then they wonder why they don't pass and make a spectacle of themselves on the forums.
The training departments job isn't to staff the airline though. No one should be coming here or any airline for that matter thinking they can just breeze right through the training. Unfortunately thats the kind of people we've been hiring as of late. Then they wonder why they don't pass and make a spectacle of themselves on the forums.
I agree, it should require some effort but the reality of the situation is that there aren't that many people left to choose from and the current staffing situation is going to burn people out quickly.
03-14-2018, 01:33 PM
#42
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Joined APC: Jun 2016
Posts: 397
Originally Posted by DarkSideMoon
It's kind of adapt or die though. If you aren't getting trainees who can get through the way training is set up they should adjust the methods (not the standards!) to help more people get through. If it takes hand holding, hold some hands. There aren't many qualified candidates anymore, and it's doubtful they're going to be able to compete with the pay at EV or the soft landings/quick upgrade at SKW to pull people from other airlines.
I agree, it should require some effort but the reality of the situation is that there aren't that many people left to choose from and the current staffing situation is going to burn people out quickly.
I agree, it should require some effort but the reality of the situation is that there aren't that many people left to choose from and the current staffing situation is going to burn people out quickly.
03-14-2018, 02:42 PM
#43
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Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 3,094
Originally Posted by StrykerB21
Yeah agreed. They're doing everything they can. Some people are getting as much as 20 to 25 sim sessions if you can believe it. Some are close to a hundred hours of OE. The thing people are struggling with is theres numerous techniques being taught and new hires are confusing technique for procedure.
Sorry to ruffle feathers.
03-14-2018, 03:13 PM
#44
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Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 841
I can understand to a point disliking instructors teaching different methods. Even I get annoyed when I get kudos doing something one way and the next year a slap on the wrist for doing it the same way. That being said I think as professionals people need to be able to have some flexibility and figure it out. You won't fly with the same captain every trip either. Everyone has their own little quirks and we all have had to adapt to get through a week.
03-14-2018, 04:11 PM
#45
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Joined APC: May 2015
Posts: 440
I want to maintain a level of privacy for all involved.
But for what it's worth, I now have an idea of the challenges the training department can face. ZW is still in my top 3 for regionals. Yes, I am very worried about the training. That's the biggest drawback I can consistently think of when it comes to ZW.
But I just recently upgraded to captain at my part 135 Caravan operation. Our FOs are very diverse. Some get hired with 250 hours and are stellar. Some have 1000 hours and are very weak. To be honest, I was pretty naive when it came to pilot skill, or lack thereof. As a FO, all of my CA's were excellent.
But in the other seat, I can definitely see the disparity. I let a 400 hour FO that was with the company for two months fly into a class B airport. It was his first time going into a Bravo, first PRM approach, and first time with icing. He was obviously outside his comfort zone, but he did fine.
I had another FO who got hired with damn near quad digit hours and has been with the company for a while, and I had to take the controls from him because he fishtailed all the way through the localizer. His time was built in mostly VFR.
I don't mean to talk smack about anyone. But the point is that I am now a firm believer that it's the quality of hours, not the quantity of hours that matter. I've always known it, but now I've experienced it first hand. I haven't been through a part 121 program yet, I'm not God's gift to aviation, and I don't know it all. But my take away is get out and challenge yourself. Get outside your comfort zone. Don't fly ONLY when it's P6SM SKC. It's not doing you, or the person sitting next to you, any good. Just my two cents.
But for what it's worth, I now have an idea of the challenges the training department can face. ZW is still in my top 3 for regionals. Yes, I am very worried about the training. That's the biggest drawback I can consistently think of when it comes to ZW.
But I just recently upgraded to captain at my part 135 Caravan operation. Our FOs are very diverse. Some get hired with 250 hours and are stellar. Some have 1000 hours and are very weak. To be honest, I was pretty naive when it came to pilot skill, or lack thereof. As a FO, all of my CA's were excellent.
But in the other seat, I can definitely see the disparity. I let a 400 hour FO that was with the company for two months fly into a class B airport. It was his first time going into a Bravo, first PRM approach, and first time with icing. He was obviously outside his comfort zone, but he did fine.
I had another FO who got hired with damn near quad digit hours and has been with the company for a while, and I had to take the controls from him because he fishtailed all the way through the localizer. His time was built in mostly VFR.
I don't mean to talk smack about anyone. But the point is that I am now a firm believer that it's the quality of hours, not the quantity of hours that matter. I've always known it, but now I've experienced it first hand. I haven't been through a part 121 program yet, I'm not God's gift to aviation, and I don't know it all. But my take away is get out and challenge yourself. Get outside your comfort zone. Don't fly ONLY when it's P6SM SKC. It's not doing you, or the person sitting next to you, any good. Just my two cents.
03-15-2018, 05:19 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Originally Posted by DiveAndDrive
I want to maintain a level of privacy for all involved.
But for what it's worth, I now have an idea of the challenges the training department can face. ZW is still in my top 3 for regionals. Yes, I am very worried about the training. That's the biggest drawback I can consistently think of when it comes to ZW.
But I just recently upgraded to captain at my part 135 Caravan operation. Our FOs are very diverse. Some get hired with 250 hours and are stellar. Some have 1000 hours and are very weak. To be honest, I was pretty naive when it came to pilot skill, or lack thereof. As a FO, all of my CA's were excellent.
But in the other seat, I can definitely see the disparity. I let a 400 hour FO that was with the company for two months fly into a class B airport. It was his first time going into a Bravo, first PRM approach, and first time with icing. He was obviously outside his comfort zone, but he did fine.
I had another FO who got hired with damn near quad digit hours and has been with the company for a while, and I had to take the controls from him because he fishtailed all the way through the localizer. His time was built in mostly VFR.
I don't mean to talk smack about anyone. But the point is that I am now a firm believer that it's the quality of hours, not the quantity of hours that matter. I've always known it, but now I've experienced it first hand. I haven't been through a part 121 program yet, I'm not God's gift to aviation, and I don't know it all. But my take away is get out and challenge yourself. Get outside your comfort zone. Don't fly ONLY when it's P6SM SKC. It's not doing you, or the person sitting next to you, any good. Just my two cents.
But for what it's worth, I now have an idea of the challenges the training department can face. ZW is still in my top 3 for regionals. Yes, I am very worried about the training. That's the biggest drawback I can consistently think of when it comes to ZW.
But I just recently upgraded to captain at my part 135 Caravan operation. Our FOs are very diverse. Some get hired with 250 hours and are stellar. Some have 1000 hours and are very weak. To be honest, I was pretty naive when it came to pilot skill, or lack thereof. As a FO, all of my CA's were excellent.
But in the other seat, I can definitely see the disparity. I let a 400 hour FO that was with the company for two months fly into a class B airport. It was his first time going into a Bravo, first PRM approach, and first time with icing. He was obviously outside his comfort zone, but he did fine.
I had another FO who got hired with damn near quad digit hours and has been with the company for a while, and I had to take the controls from him because he fishtailed all the way through the localizer. His time was built in mostly VFR.
I don't mean to talk smack about anyone. But the point is that I am now a firm believer that it's the quality of hours, not the quantity of hours that matter. I've always known it, but now I've experienced it first hand. I haven't been through a part 121 program yet, I'm not God's gift to aviation, and I don't know it all. But my take away is get out and challenge yourself. Get outside your comfort zone. Don't fly ONLY when it's P6SM SKC. It's not doing you, or the person sitting next to you, any good. Just my two cents.
03-15-2018, 07:40 AM
#48
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2016
Posts: 397
Originally Posted by DiveAndDrive
How much (and what) would you recommend studying before hand?
03-15-2018, 07:59 AM
#49
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Joined APC: May 2015
Posts: 440
Wow. That’s crazy for me. I studied for 3 months before I went to ground school on a Caravan. You wouldn’t even recommend the Aerosim Checkride CRJ 200 app? I don’t have it, but apparently it goes through the entire overhead panel and describes in detail what every switch does.
03-15-2018, 07:59 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 417
Originally Posted by DarkSideMoon
It's kind of adapt or die though. If you aren't getting trainees who can get through the way training is set up they should adjust the methods (not the standards!) to help more people get through. If it takes hand holding, hold some hands. There aren't many qualified candidates anymore, and it's doubtful they're going to be able to compete with the pay at EV or the soft landings/quick upgrade at SKW to pull people from other airlines.
I agree, it should require some effort but the reality of the situation is that there aren't that many people left to choose from and the current staffing situation is going to burn people out quickly.
I agree, it should require some effort but the reality of the situation is that there aren't that many people left to choose from and the current staffing situation is going to burn people out quickly.
Recently heard of a guy who got hired here...they gave him 24 sim sessions. He finally managed to pass a checkride...im assuming by sheer rote memorization rather than any airmanship whatsoever. After 140 hours of ioe he was let go. Theres only so much you can do to adapt to get people through and we are bending over backwards to get people through. At some point you have say you cant with a clean conscience send these guys to the line and have this person behind the controls with someones family in the back paging through Skymall thinking theyre in good hands.
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