What? What? In my What?
 

Full-Hiring at big three kicks in. Check
No longer bound by arbitration. Double check.


I know it's a ways off, but, in all seriousness and sincerity, at that time, how are you guys actually going to get those things; scope, scheduling changes, better pay?

Between now and then, I'd be curious to see if a problem attracting/retaining eventually materializes. The new higher FO pay, years 1-5, a 5-yr upgrade, and 15-15.5% DC might be enough to keep 'em coming/applying. I don't honestly know. As far as attrition, you said it yourself, IYO, you think people are better of staying. Leaving is easier said than done.

In any case, if a pilot attraction/retention problem eventually arises, it will take time to materialize and even more time to be reacted to by the same management that brought you the perfect storm Horizon pilot shortage.


-

When I was researching pay rates during my job search, JBLU rates were substantially lower than ALK. If I remember correctly, it wasn't too long ago that top of scale captain's rate at JBLU were in the $180s for quite some time. $219 isn't anything to write home about especially when JBLU isn't on most pilot's radar. It's a step above Spirit in most pilot's view. I guess $3 more will buy you a bigger airport burrito. Yesterday's ALK still offered a better overall compensation package than today's JBLU. I'm just stating facts.
I remember meeting a former JBLU pilot during my short time at Alaska. I don't know of anyone who've left ALK to go work for JBLU. In all seriousness, I wish you guys the best outcome but JBLU isn't in the same career league unless ALK acquires JBLU.:D

If you are under four years at AS or VX I think you would be crazy to stay. UAL AMR DAL FEDEX UPS all way better careers from that starting point. However, you still have to get hired and that at times can be harder then it looks. If you are 12 years or more you are not going anywhere especially considering the cost of throwing away the pension.

Ha! What a do*che. JetBlue is 17 years old, Alaska is 85 years old. Jetblue is currently 30% larger than Alaska, let's see if that trend continues over the next 70 years so we can draw a valid comparison.

To the intelligent individuals who have written about their disappointment today, I've been where are you are and I feel for you. The only encouragement I can provide is "don't allow the job to define your happiness." I wish you well and will support your fight in 2020.

With all due respect, I have many friends at JetBlue and wish you all the best. As far as JetBlue paying more than ALK... on a topped out hourly rate by pennies and honestly in the grand scheme of things for days. Overall compensation is really not close. Your medical cost alone are mind boggling.

April 18
SWA 258.30
ALK 258.53

With your own reasoning have you ever made close to SWA wages...com-on man

Check back your contract will be done hopefully late spring early summer 245$. I bet you will have scope though

Good question JA...

But no. AS will have no trouble hiring or retaining pilots. This could change in 2021 -2022 time frame. Spirit Frontier and JetBlue are also filling classes each month with significantly lower rates.

This will happen because supply and demand will be on our side and the backstop would be a strike... It won’t be easy though, nothing worth having ever is.

The only people better off staying are 5 years or more but for sure 12 year captains, 100% in the pension plan

great take more. I could use the jump in seniority.

If you read my post, I'm no longer with ALK. You are in dire need of reading comprehension skills. I have left for greener pastures. Even though I'm no longer part of ALK, I have respect for the people there and quite frankly, they have a great business model. The numbers speak for themselves. I still have friends there and I wish them the best.
You are obviously the emotional type and like to shoot from the hip. True, JBLU is younger and bigger but their spread sheet is far from stellar. Without getting into details, JBLU is another stepping stone airline and is not structured to withstand another economic down turn/major terrorist attack. ALK management chose to turn their airline somewhat into a stepping stone airline for the time being but it will turnaround for them. Stats and numbers don't lie. JBLU is just another inflated LCC. Again, look at the numbers and you'll see. If you still think that your dick is bigger, you may want to take off those bifocals.

Says the man who enters this ****ing contest- The fact that a "legacy" like Alaska and jetblew are even in the same sentence is a sad commentary on the latest arbitration.
B6 is way behind and so is Alaska. The only contest should be between pilots and their respective management. :rolleyes:

I do think is important to write... No matter if you decide to stay or go, I am confident Alaska will be a great career. Maybe not the best but a great career. If you are lucky enough to get hired at DAL or whoever ends up being the best you will always be able to find someone who did better. Whether it be computer science, business, or Hollywood. Be happy for them but appreciate the fact, you did pretty well, probably better then most... don’t forget where you came from and give something back!

RJstoMajors who are u flying for now? Just curious?

If I’m not mistaken Jetblue was born into arguably the roughest climate for the airline industry in the USA and made do, to say nothing of cheating death yet again during the great economic down turn of the last decade. I’d venture ole blue might not be blue for the long term but will probably still be kickin’. Good luck to you.

Call me paranoid, still on probation but I'm at one of the big 3.

You're right. Thanks and you as well.

I totally get being on probation. How long were u at Alaska? I don’t know which one you’re at but I would have made the same switch.

Is the beeaaaching over already? What?

Not at all. It may have slowed down here, but it's a different story on the line.

I think most of us are gearing up for the 2020 Section 6 negotiations.

I hope this pilot group starts to grow a pair. I'm not holding my breath. We'll know for sure once we are all one group and get to negotiate and vote on a TA as a unified group. Will be waiting years to get that chance.

I say we all print out a hard copy of tks nonsense heartless email, write across it in sharpie, "you do not have our help, we are offboard. Good luck." and snail mail it back to him.. let's prove a point and start to build the fear for 2020

I like it.

TK is so tone deaf. That E-Mail was a joke.

All of his emails are jokes

Time is now to start for 2020 don’t let them split us with the sli arbitration stay unified (union) and shove their arrogance where the sun doesn’t shine. Stay strong stay united union!!!

Any splitting that results from the upcoming SLI will NOT require any help from the company.

The company has nothing to do with the SLI proceedings or SLI arbitration in an ALPA-ALPA carrier merger. The TPA spells out the process of SLI negotiations, mediation phase, and arbitration.

Why should AS pilots earn Big Four pay?
 

After speaking with one of the negotiators for the IAM, representing the CSAs and Res Agents among others (COPS contract), I'd asked what his thoughts were on the arbitration award, knowing they're going into openers with the company in April.

He said, "I don't see what the fuss is about; it's a fair deal. We were prepared to go into negotiations asking for the average of the Big Four, minus 5%, because we know we can't ask the company for industry-best pay - it's just not feasible."

So if a union negotiator understands why coming in under the Big Four is a reasonable ask, why is this deal somehow unfair? I'd like to hear some well thought-out reasons.

You are saying two different things, are you saying what the negotiators asked for was fair, or are you saying that the award is fair, because one of them is fair, the other is not.

It's very feasible.

25% profit margin.

I'll say it again.... 25% PROFIT MARGIN (Remember when 10% was the magic holy grail number we needed to attain?)

Bull$hit expectations in the gutter like that are why we all get treated like $hit. The B&B show always knows that you'll bend over backwards for $hit because of the "AS Family" $hit they spew. You sound like pu$$y ALPA negotiators that are scared to even ask for what they want (ya gotta give up something to get something) because it might screw up their second floor job chances. COPS needs to grow some balls just like ALPA does. We are #1 in efficiency and #1 in productivity. Take the 1990 route map and overlay it with today's route map. Bigger airline, bigger pay. 3 reasons why we should get industry leading pay. This "you've always got #5 so this is what you should get" is crap. This ain't the same AS like is was in 1990.

NO MORE ARBITRATION. I'M WILLING TO WALK FOR SCOPE YOU SHOULD BE TO. WE NEED TO GROW SOME GOD DAMM BALLS AND ASK/STRIKE FOR WHAT WE'VE EARNED.

And don't get me started on the fact that Alaska Airlines can't even fly through a snowflake without pre cancelling flights.....

You my friend need to look in the mirror....your nose is growing. You
did not actually ever have that conversation. So a more honest approach would be to just ask your own question....tsk tsk

Dude as of 9/30/2017 the financials show $2,321,956 in revenue YTD. and NET income (profit) as $264,879... divide profit YTD into YTD revenue and we have 11.4% margin. If your gonna get on here and yap atleast yap facts. I know it may be an inconvenient truth but the margin, although healthy at 11%... is certainly not 25%..
And be very careful attaching our pay worthiness to profit margin, because heaven forbid our margins decline, I highly doubt youll support us making less pay because our margins are less. The pay should be higher based on the market rates for pilots right now.. margin has very little to do with anything...

You DO remember that the 10% ROIC number was what was needed to sustain growth during the "Flightpath" sessions several years back, BEFORE getting squeezed at SEA by DL, at LAX by AA, and before B6 made a bid for VX, forcing the company's hand into a it's-now-or-never approach to committing to growth in CA, right? All while fuel was substantially lower than it is today, and with yields far higher than they are today due to increased competition in our core markets? (Hint: those 25% ROIC numbers just aren't coming back; ever.)

Or did you forget those very important factors that mean a cost advantage is a NECESSITY for AS to compete and grow? Obviously the arbitrators looked at those factors when coming to a decision that was well over what the company wanted, but obviously short of what ALPA asked.

Not only did the conversation happen, it was on Friday night in SEA at a company event, and I was pleasantly surprised at his candor in terms of not only his perspective on the arbitration award, but also that he was willing to openly share the IAM's opening position for payscales in the upcoming negotiations and why they felt they could only ask for so much. This led into another healthy discussion about the merits of increasing the wages in that existing CBA, the details of which aren't important here.

But sure, stick your head in the sand and say "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALA" if you want, but if you have other union leadership members, who are also part of the negotiating team for an upcoming contract negotiation, saying they believe 5% under the average of the Big Four is fair compensation for the COPS contract, it's hard to understand why ALPA members would insist on being compensated at the top of the industry, especially if it renders the company unable to continue with growth that equals better job protection, better lines, and perhaps even larger equipment (yes, you heard me correctly) in the coming decade.

With a NC like that, who needs enemies? Management has been successful in making you guys feel bad that they bought another airline. That think is just enabling them. I'm glad that our MEC/NC have stones here at United. Glad that I'm gone from the AAG.

Simple, it is because the interests of the rank & file union members and the union are not the same.

All the unions want is peace and to keep the dues flowing. This keeps their representation cost down. During a strike both the employees and the unions income goes to zero but the unions representation cost go through the roof. These analyst and outside counsel aren't cheap. If you are the staff counsel at a union you get PAID THE SAME whether your guys are out walking the picket line fighting for better; with you having to work 60+ hours between talking to the various parties. Or you could convince your guys that they are only worth 90-95% of the other guys, it makes for much easier negotiations, and during the 5 years of the meat of your contract you can take extended lunches and still have time to cut out early for your sons soccer game while your guys are on the line flying worse schedules than ever, in crappier hotels than ever, trying not to get sick from their moldy crew meals.

Hogwash. If the union were not representing the interests of the membership, that's legally actionable and puts the union at risk of decertification; no union will avoid presenting the asks of the membership in a negotiation unless they're illegal, immoral, unethical, compromise safety, or if they're beyond what is reasonable in a good-faith negotiation.

Obviously, "reasonable" is a relative term, but if the IAM acknowledges that asking for pay matching the Big Four is unreasonable, you have to wonder why ALPA went there while simultaneously asking for additional benefits and protections, including a scope clause.

Post number 5...well played company man. Won’t be reading anymore from you.

Some statistics to counter this effective management driven fallacy that pilot labor costs are a significant factor to an airline's business model and thus it's overall health and growth potential:

Alaska Air Group third quarter revenue: $2.1 billion
Let's assume the third quarter cost difference between Delta 737 rates and Alaska management's proposed rates equals $50 million.

Take that $50 million and divide it by $2.1 billion = roughly 2%

Let's say Mr. Pilot's annual gross income is $100,000. Take that same 2% from $100,000 and you get $2000 bucks. Does a $2000 cost increase threaten Mr. Pilot's entire lifestyle (ie "business model) making $100 grand? Unless he has completely dorked up other budgeting in his life, I would argue no.

Yet as evidenced by the quote above, many still believe this airline's ENTIRE business plan and growth model would be put in jeopardy by this very same cost increase if we were to go to Delta rates. Sadly, the company and this cost propaganda machine fallacy continue to win over many, including a sizable amount of the very people they are most directly deceiving... us pilots.

Maybe you should stick with forecasting the direction of Alaska stock. Your predictions on the “other” Airline forum smell of a classic stock “pump and dump”.

I can see B and B stoking fire with the upset pilots. There will be upset pilots.

I know this isn’t my first ALPA ALPA merger, they can stoke the fires after it is done to devide and concor

Found your problem, your at a company event.

From the earnings call
[QUOTE][For the quarter, our operating revenues grew to a record $2.12 billion. On that revenue, we earned a pre-tax margin of 21% and pre-tax income of $446 million,/QUOTE]
Your wrong, from the horses mouth above.

EA CO AS,

Alaska's CASM decreased between 2015 and 2016. Who took a pay cut or did management effectively manage the denominator of the CASM equation?

What effect does 0.1% increase of ASMs have on CASM?