eff'd again
 

I was really pulling for you guys, hoping to live vicariously through you.

Kasher all over again-

No disrespect intended, but:

Fool me once, shame on you
Fool me twice, shame on me

Maybe next time, during negotiations, you guys will ALL wear your orange lanyards, stop working premium, and stop selling back your vacations... for starters

Jeff Parker at American told the pilots that they would have to wait until the next negotiations to re-visit pay. They forced his hand and the rest is history. They proved that it's never too late.

My hope for you guys is that's the wheels come off of the bus and that there's a mass exodus of talent

“Nuetral Arbitrator “ my a$$

It’s worth remembering that we still had 2 years to go on our old pay rates etc. The only reason we got anything is because the company agreed to open the three sections to facilitate the merger with VX. It is what it is and now we move forward with section 6 by 2020. In the mean time the pay will increase 3% a year.

http://https://www.google.com/search...xvr4cT_XLMFtM:

Got any more of them Pixels?

Scope is a big deal long term. But short-term why would the company want to raise junior FO pay if they plan to outsource vast amounts of flying? If they're going to furlough, no need to raise pay to attract pilots. Perhaps they're simply holding onto scope because it's a big chip for the next round?

RJ's, despite cheap labor, are not nearly as cost-effective at moving pax. Only thing they really have going for them is it's easier to provide frequency on light routes. Plus in a couple years it's going to be a lot easier to find a competent jet pilot for a NB than for an RJ...

You keep saying this. It’s not “Jeff Parker” it’s Doug. Doug Parker.

This is balony... the company did not voluntarily agree to negotiate anything. The contract forced them to negotiate because of the merger. It was ALPA who decided to go with just a couple of sections vs a full negotiation to help facilitate their merger. Looking back I would gladly trade this merger for our old pay rates and a full section 6 in 2018... 2.5 to 4 more years without scope, go team :cool:

You're kidding me, right?
 

OK. I'll concede that. Does correcting me on the name make you feel better? It's the DUI guy from America West, US Air, then, American.

But really? Does whether it's Jeff Parker, Doug Parker or even Lyle Parker make it any less true?

More the fact anything you say loses credibility when you flub basic facts dealing with your statement.

If I were to say “President Danny Trump has had some serious issues recently,” it would look foolish.

No. I don’t feel one way or the other about Parker...It’s just if you can’t get the very most basic facts right, it undermines anything you say after.

Going to check your math. we would be due a new contract in 2018...So the effect of the Merger...our new amenable date is 11/01/2020....7 1/2 years out of a 5 year contract...at least we caught up to Allegiant...Wonder what the price of oil, the economy etc .will be doing then?

After reading the full award, I come to the following conclusions:

1) Arbitrators do not consider AS equivalent to the big 3 + Southwest, mostly due to size and "global network" scheme. If anything, AS is a lot closer to Hawaiian than anything else. So any attempt to bring up Alaska to the level of the big boys in regards to full pay scale, 401K contribution, etc will be denied. They'll grant just enough to rank it as number 4-5ish, not top 3.

2) Management did a helluva job selling their pitch about how scope would hinder growth plans and blah blah blah...and arbitrators bought it, as they argue that even though there is no current scope protection, management has at least respected the 76 seat limit so far, when they were not obligated to do it. Arbitrators give management a pat on the back and say to pilots "y'all don't need basic scope on paper as requested by your union, because management has already been respecting it so far without having to...". :rolls eyes:

Not looking purty...

Management was 100% right. If you want to make big money and have better job security, go fly for the big boys. Best advice ever. Horizon II on the horizon. All is lost when you have weak dip$hit pilots going around saying how we all got early pay raises since the amendable date is ‘18. It’s truly pathetic when one has to justify one’s failure.

Alaska pilots need some guts, hope you put up a fight in 2020 or be content to make your standard -10% till management finds out how good a deal they can get on those homeless MRJ , e-195 e2 or cs100s flown by a "partner"

The reality is Alaska is now officially a 2nd tier airline...a stepping stone. I'm not at all surprised by the Arbitration results. Also, I don't blame ALPA one bit. The cards are always stacked against us, the "level playing field" one would expect in arbitration is an illusion. Alaska is, (so far) a stable place to work, just know that if you decide to dedicate your working years here, you're going to leave a ton of money on the table. A career at Alaska is going to be worth at least 7 figures less than a legacy airline. Don't expect that to change. I also expect to see a huge uptick in guys leaving which I don't think management cares anything about.

Arbitration went exactly like I expected. The only reason I made the comment about pay being fair is because it’s the ONLY thing we didn’t completely lose out on. It’s still not what we deserve. Scope is the big one and we didn’t get one drop of it, so what comes next is going to be really terrifying.

I feel bad for you all!!! I was hoping that the Arbitrator would rule on Scope because the Company "allowed" it to be negotiated. But SNAFU, the Arbitrators still won't rule on something that they deem a business decision. You all are going to have to be ready to walk for Scope on the next go around in 2020. I see QX 175s carrying 88 seats soon. SkyWest can't unless they want to lose their contract with United. Our Scope section doesn't allow for any regional partner to possess any jets with more than 76 seats. Regardless of who they fly them for.

Honestly I never thought I’d say this but with all the flying Alaska is giving Skywest, and how it seems like AAG is actively trying to kill Horizon, it wouldn’t shock me if Skywest said screw it and violated the agreement with United.

That would be a HUGE loss of flying for them. We are their biggest customer. I can't believe that they would sacrifice all of United's flying for the little flying that they do for you all. That would put them out of business. Our Union would force the termination of their agreement with United.

It’s super unlikely that it will happen but I’m not ruling it out. We have lots of flying going to Skywest it just makes you wonder.

Could they pull a Republic and just have a different operating certificate? One that did Alaska flying?

Any chance you can upload a better picture of the pay scale? It’s a little hard to make out the numbers

We lost on pay. A couple bucks over the company’s lowball offer is a loss.

If anything it’s the retirement that wasn’t awful. We go to 15% tomorrow and 15.5% Jan 1.

It's already out there in another thread
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/m...t-details.html

To clarify....it goes to 15.5 on Jan 1....2019

Big deal.

Not just UAL, DAL has a similar provision. Not happening... with SKW, I guess there's always great lakes, they'd love some jets.

In that regard, I am not panicking. The most realistic scenario is for AAG to breathe fresh air into Horizon and up seating capacity but without pilots, you are just going to disappoint more people.

Regional staffing is only just starting to fray at the edges, SKW has already bitten off more than it will be able to chew in a couple of years.

15.5 as versus what did you guys have before ? Just curious

13 currently. The goal was to get to to 16.

Payscales
 

Here is a pay scale comparison for easy viewing. Don't forget that work rules play a huge part in pay... things like a minimum day pay, being able to trip trade and drop, etc... the things we cannot do.

94% (DAL), a familiar number from Angle Lake.

Just to clarify. AS has no min day pay and cannot drop or trade trips???

For clarification...Work rules were not part of this Arbitration. Two years I think for new contract negotiations where's that stuff "should" change if we do it right.

We do have min pay and our trip dropping isn't like that of Southwest. So..up to us to fight for that stuff next time.

There is a MOU process for scheduling improvements, it was not subject to arbitration. But this should be the next step and scheduling improvements have to be done first before there's any looking/studying of PBS software.

Why would anyone junior stay here?

The crew meals.. duh!

Phone may not be ringing as fast some people think it would.

They live in Seattle?

It seems like the arbitrator saw what the company asked and agreed and then looked at the union’s asks and unilaterally denied all. Seems systematically fair?