Next Up E190/195 at Horizon Air
 

Dave Cambell, President at Horizon is quoted as saying 100 seat jets are the future at Horizon. It would not be the E175 I would be worried about, but the E2 190/195. You guys got played by the Sociopaths with MBA's at Angle Lake.

Next up for your guys is a 6 year Section Six negotiations, while your seniority list only moves by retirements. You will have up gauging from the MAX and any NEO 321 they keep, but kiss growth goodbye, as all airlines will undergo margin compression for the next 5 years, and ALK balance sheet is as leveraged now as all the rest.

Yea, they have to attract pilots first.

I couldn’t disagree more.

Alaska just cemented their cost advantage. I expect they’ll grow. Only question is the ratio of mainline:regional growth.

Let’s hope they don’t just say “F it, let’s start an alter ego.”

What better way to attract pimple faced 1500hr CFI's than promise them the right seat of a big, fast, shiny, E2? SJS is real. Just look at Mesa, who is filling classes despite being an embarrassment to the industry in terms of compensation and work rules. Give Horizon recruits a big new hire bonus and guarantee that they won't have to fly some dumpy turboprop, and there will be a line of people tripping over their balls to come there.

This, this, a thousand times, this.

AS has consistently maintained that to be competitive, a cost advantage is required. And they've never aspired to offer industry-best pay; it's more about offering pay/benefits that are competitive, but attracting employees who truly want to be part of the company vs. just being in it for the pay.

They've been successful at that for the most part. Will it change with the pilot shortages? Possibly.

And possibly not.

But for the life of this new agreement, AS has managed to lock in a notable cost advantage over AA/DL/UA/WN.

He's also the guy that stated ANC would get jets and grow...you read the QX page lately?

You mean the company that lies and pays like crap while espousing family values...? Joseph Goebbels would be proud.

Once again alaska pilots show themselves as cheap tables that fold under anything. The Mesa of 737 operators...while the other majors got scope clauses they had their thumbs up their ass. At least the nail is in the coffin on mainline jobs while QX and SW grow. Alaska pilots are solely to blame for this.

Which hurts pilots across the industry.

I don't believe QX can operate greater than 76 seat jets as long as they are part of AAG. If they do they are required to merge with AS per the contract. This is what I was told by someone in the union. Check out section 1.C.3 then lookup the definition of "small aircraft"in section 2.

This doesn't stop a company not part of AAG flying them. Just Horizon, unless they are sold.

If Horizon picks up a 100 to 110 sear jet they can offer 20 an hour more than any other regional and pilots will flock there. Problem solved!

Yep. Easily. They own Expressjet!

I wonder if it will get to the point where airlines with better compensation/work rules actively recruit other airlines’ pilots?

A very ignorant statement

As was inferred by the arbiitration panel, both 09 and 13 were opportunities for us to stand our ground and get scope, retirement, retro pay, industry leading pay and job protections.....they were unwilling to do for us what we are always unwilling to do for us...not on the backs of VA or anyone hired post “contract 200” but certainly the rest of us should spend a quiet moment or 2 years and see if we might step up just once this century.....

Yes absolutely.

This was very smart on the companies part...good pay rates your first 5 years...good for recruiting...by the time you realize you are sucking hind-tit career-wise it will be hard to leave.

I hope BM and BT are okay with 5th best on-time and customer service.

Now that is a constructive statement. Work on our next contract starts now... well it should have started long ago but here we are.

It takes brass balls to get a good contract! "ABC" Always Be Conflagrating

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pu...bf1c1e5485.jpg

All is well.
 

This is a very confusing time for me. I feel like I've been kicked in the nuts. I've never been so upset at getting a moderate pay raise in my life. I'm angry at my employer for what they think of me and how they disrespect me. I'm unhappy when told I'm #5 and that I will always be #5 because that is simply what the business model demands.

I believed that I was worthy of pay and benefits equal to my pears at other airlines. Those other airlines make less money pound for pound when all the accounting is done, but that does not matter. What matters is size (head count) and wide bodies.

So, it is what is it is. I'm to old to move on and start over. I know that for the remainder of my career I will act differently due to the actions of my management and their business model. They desire that I accept being #5 for my career - they have demanded that of me. So, I will be the best #5 Captain I can be. No extensions, no radio calls to fix this or that, no pushing to "gitter done" in any way. Just go to work, provide safe transportations to the pax, assuming the company has put everything else in place to support said operation without me doing others work outside of my cockpit. Then go home. Simple, safe, no problems. Do my job and allow others to do theirs.

I also need to start working on my sick leave bank. As a man gets older I have noticed the aches and pains that creep up some days. No point in exacerbating them by sitting in the cockpit all day. I can get paid 25% on the dollar for those unused sick days once I retire or I can get paid 100% on the dollar if I use the sick days before I retire. What to do, what to do.

The really confusing aspect of this to me is that we (Alaska ALPA) apparently are 100% happy with this decision. I may be the only Alaska pilot who has literally had sleepless nights since the award came out. I may very well be the only guy who was kicked in the nuts and is still looking for the frozen peas. Why do I say this? Because we have run a near perfect operations for the last two days since the award. So, a moderate pay raise, still leaving us behind other 737 pilots (and FiFi pilots) and slipping further and further behind with each passing year is A-OK with this pilot group. Hell, management has yet to even acknowledge that there was an award! Not one word, not one breath from our management that anything even happened! And why should they? The operation is running 100%, so all those pilots must be happy! I would have expect at least one other man or woman here to have tossed and turned in bed as much as I have been the last two nights and found themselves unfit for duty the next morning - but I guess not.
Well back to work you highly efficient #5 pilots. Gitter Done!

I was flying the past 2 days. No, you are not alone, and the operation was far from perfect.

Step away from the Kool-Aid Mr. Jones.

Do you really believe the drivel you just spewed. You're ok providing arguably one of the best products out there for a discounted wage?

If I were you, I'd start delivering the 5th best everything. 5th place in On-time, 5th most efficient fuel burns, go 5 times the distance around weather, deliver 1/5 the PA's the other carriers do, 5 times as many maintenance write-ups ect, ect.............

Bet the F/A's are next for this 5th best nonsense as well and they too should provide the 5th best in everything!!

Anyone who condones this as satisfactory should be ashamed of themselves.

I'm sure the company pays 5th for fuel, airplanes and parts as well. /s

100% agree, extremely well said!!!

All due respect, wasn't the time for this attitude about 6 months ago, BEFORE this decision was sent to arbitration?

I share similar sentiments with many of you. TOS Alaska captains just received a 16% pay raise (approx. 33% for VX captains) but I am more upset now than when Kasher was awarded. I had to second guess and ask myself if I'm crazy for feeling this way. For the past few days, I've been trying to shake it off but to no avail.
There's never an end here at Alaskasworld! We continue to get kicked in the nut sack and the koolaid chuggers still keep on truckin'! I had hoped that Uncle Sam's boys would see through the company's spin and do the right thing. How naive of me to have such hope! Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. This society is absolutely rotten to the core!
I have now completely removed myself from this job. There was a faint glimpse of hope for this dysfunctional organization even after Kasher but now, they've lost me 100%. I have accepted the fact that the company deems my worth to be 6-10% below market value (and falling) and that they expect me to perform at such level. Ask and you shall receive. No one goes shopping for a Rolex at Walmart, except our management. Effective immediately, I will give them exactly what they've asked of me - 5th/6th best effort. I will be a good little soldier and follow the orders of my employer.
I'm gearing up for 2020. I hope the rest of this pilot group is doing the same. We will have to fight tooth and nail in a steep uphill battle. I've never voluntarily offered career advice to anyone but here's my 2 cents. If you are looking for a job, Alaska Airlines should be dead last on your list even if you have half a brain. Alaska is a "legacy" only by definition but it's really operated like a LCC and treats their front line employees like dirt. They may advertise the highest first year pay and 2-5 year pay is somewhat decent but the rest of the pay scale is below HAL. That's just pay. Our pairing and lines are the worst I've seen since my time here and the inability to trade trips (yes, INABILITY) will further negatively impact your QOL. Most of the trips are not commutable so expect to spend extra time away from your loved ones while flying 3 day trips worth 11-12 hours of credit/pay. Kasher completely gutted our work rules and it's never been the same. And let's not forget the fact that we have ZERO scope. If you want to work for a penny pinching company who will flat out tell you that you are worth less than your peers and kick you in the nut sack with a smiley face, then you've found your stepping stone airline job. Heck, you'll at least get a type rating out of it, right? There's your total compensation in a nutshell. Just remember, beatings will continue until morale improves. This is about the extent of leadership skills of this management teem comprised of bean counting zombies.
For the first time in my career, I wish I had left for greener pastures when I had the chance after Kasher - missed golden opportunity for sure. I feel so much better that I've come to grips with reality. However, to think that I've given my best effort to this operation makes me sick to my stomach. It'll take some effort to pull back my performance 5-6% but I'm looking forward to how much more relaxed I will feel when I can fulfill the company's expectations of me.

Good point. We have a weak pilot group but the demographics are changing for the better. We still have more than enough selfish pilots who'll throw everyone under the bus for a few extra bucks. I don't think mudhen is one of them, however.

Helplessness
 

Mudhen,

I empathize with you. There’s a deep feeling of powerlessness. It’s not like you can go anywhere and get paid $251 an hour. My decision to leave was a painful one. I felt and still feel scarred.

In the end, in Arbitration, no one countered the Company’s argument that you should be 5th-6th because you always have been. No one refuted precedent. The retention/attraction of pilots argument apparently failed. Nor did the Union address true costs by illustrating how much of an advantage the Company already enjoys because of your work rules. Under Section 25, Scheduling, the Company is getting by with fewer pilots because your contract forces and allows you guys to be so productive relative to everyone else. You are working more hours per pilot. Sadly, it’s mostly for straight time.

As far as you personally performing at only 5th level, it’s not going to make a difference, even on an emotional level. The only thing that the Company understands is operational metrics. So, unless they start seeing cancellations, you personally can perform at 5th level until the cows come home. As long as there is no shortage of guys flying time and a half and selling back vacations, the schedule will get covered and your efforts will be in vain.

You are right. Today is the time to prepare for the future. Start saving for that strike fund, become militant, and stop being phuckn boyscouts; because, you don’t get the contract you deserve, you get the contract you demand. The Company is never going to do the right thing unless forced to do so. The only way to force them is thru job actions. Keep in mind that there are legal job actions and other job actions. There are also phone trees and blanket parties; but, that’s another hypothetical story.

Also, the union is not the MEC, not the Negotiating Committee, or even National. The Union is the pilot in the seat next to you. If he’s doing things counter to the best interests of the group, that’s a problem.

Just my two cents.

Ignorant is an understatement. And it's worth remembering that senior pilots still have a decent pension. I expect 40% final average earnings for life when I retire. That's not nothing.

This.


Cry 'havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war.


In other news, who's up for a "5th best pay, 5th best pilots" lanyard?

Y'all need to be mindful of what you write on here. AAG company lawyers read this stuff no doubt.

How about

F.O.O.F fresh out of ----s

This isn't N. Korea so what's your point? No need to live in fear.
As for the lanyard idea, I would like a brighter orange one that says "Go **** yourself!".

Shame. I hope that is the overwhelming sensation that Alaska pilots are feeling right now. You should be ashamed that you had the perfect storm of leverage and time tables to bargain for serious improvements to your contract, but because you had a lack of foresight and hardwired a mandatory arbitration clause into your CBA, you've lost all ability to control your own futures.

You should be ashamed that you thought anything good could come from forced arbitration. It's a ploy that suckers agree to in America these days. The game is always rigged in the company's favor.

You should be ashamed that your union leadership has had a revolving door with management. It's crippled your union's ability to advocate for its pilots for years. Your MEC or LEC members don't want to jeopardize their friendships with BT or BM, and rocking the boat certainly won't help their personal goals. That culture needs to change.

You should be ashamed that the arbitration panel actually cited the history of the ALK pilot group of willingly taking it up the ass as precedence to deny any of the ALPA proposals.

So when the 100 seat RJ announcement happens next spring, I hope you're ashamed... and then resolved to never feel that way again.

All due respect, the time for this has been since May 1st, 2005.....

Soooo, when's the SLI?

Best guess is Fall 2018

September everyone here was all hush hush sworn to silence thinking they were somehow going to change the world.
I said:
No scope
Company retirement
SWA pay
Maybe 2 mos retro

We got:
No scope
Company retirement
SWA pay (- 6mos )
6 mos out of the year our hourly rate is identical 6 mos we are 3% behind.... 1st 3 years Fo’s obviously did better. I was honestly only looking at 12 year CA though.
No retro

This is how arbitration works. This is almost the textbook arbitrated award. No one won. Why have you not heard anything from the company? They know they didn’t win and are now trying to make this all work. I own two companies, I get it. One of my companies is doing well the other ok, but I understand economics. Our new pay rates along with the current economics in the airline industry have our company regressing significantly on profit margin next year. Alaska traditional network spread will likely be around 16% next year and Virgin network around 7%. Although those are great numbers in the grand scheme of things it is not what AS management sold to Wall Street. In fact, I would see it likely that some upper level management names change over the next 6 mos because of this. Management is already talking about cutting growth over the next three years. Look for an announcement soon. We will grow in seats only (swapping smaller for larger aircraft and adding seats to the airbus fleet) in the near term, not in number of aircraft. Other airlines will sign contracts soon. Will they do any better then Alaskas arbitrated award. I don’t think so.
Likely pay scales
JetBlue 245$
Spirit 235$
Frontier 225$
They will all find pilots too, near term

Two years from now when the big three go into full hiring mode, I think things change and now we are not governed by arbitration. We can get scope, scheduling changes, better pay. If you are surprised or depressed by this award you really don’t understand how arbitration works. If the economy does well and Alaska does well these next two years we can capture a lot or we can burn the house and quickly go back to Frontier rates. My advice, grow up and put your big boy pants on.

We have another divisive arbitration coming soon, SLI. If you are awaiting a captain bid at Alaska you want this process to take as long as possible. If you are at Virgin, you want it to happen yesterday. Growth will slow significantly in the near term as this merger is digested. There are only so many captain slots available and upon completion of the SLI, Virgin will control a significant portion of those positions. The funny thing about this SLI is we are wasting millions fighting over 100 or so positions. VX will be merged in Alaska at year 01-06. That sounds like a big spread but it is only about 150 numbers. When the dust settles the senior at AS win, the senior FO’s at VX win and the rest of us go about our lives. The #1 AS Sea captain will still get the vacation and lines they want. The number #1 VX SFO CA will still get the line and vacation they want, however with a lower company wide seniority. Nothing will change for most of us but we will all act surprised when it happens. Some will throw tantrums, some will threaten to leave. In the end not much will change but the banter. If you really are that unhappy, leave. My guess is most of you are actually better off staying though.

Most of your post was right. This part, however, was completely wrong.

Anyone who can get a job at DAL, UAL, AMR, SWA, FDX, or UPS is better off doing so.

Junior FO’s yes... some will leave and I sincerely hope they have great careers. 12 year CA’s, even young ones like me would likely never right the ship.

$245 for JBLU? Is that before or after your knee-high setting of the bar? I know that payscales aren't everything, but JBLU was higher than ALK before your award and I expect us to be higher when our first contract comes out.

I know our contract won't pass unless it has scope in it. We "have" scope now if you trust the paper it's written on.

Don't go out and buy your "paid like #5" lanyards yet.:D

-to be edited in two years when our contract still hasn't come out-

FWIW...I've seen several of your FOs out of ANC migrate over to UPS this last year. Got a couple of your guys at FDX and another interviewing next month.