Originally Posted by All Bizniz

I may make 300k this year, but what good is that if my schedule goes down the drain, I am unable to spend quality time with my family and I hate my job?

A better pay rate is only half of what it takes to be happy in a pilot's job.

Originally Posted by Packrat

I guess you could always quit. Its not indentured servitude after all.

Originally Posted by All Bizniz

While I wouldn't call AS guys weak, spineless, clowns, there is an acknowledgement even on the AS side, that management have gotten the better of the pilot group over the years and consequently there is this "shell shocked" reluctance to put up any more resistance as there is this belief that no matter what, management always finds a way to get around you.. It seems like or at least I am hopeful that this time will be different and collectively we will be able to make meaningful gains in the upcoming contract negotiations.

As far as your criticism of VX pilots go, I would like you to consider these points:
Pilots came to the VX startup in '06, '07, '08, etc for many different reasons. If you recall, airlines were folding and pilots were being furloughed. NOBODY was hiring EXCEPT VX, so some came for that reason. Others came for the rapid command upgrade, among other reasons.

One thing I am sure of however, is that the overwhelming majority of the pilots hired at VX were/are not bottom of the barrel guys and in fact quite a few have been hired or went back to the majors when they were recalled. In essence the safety and quality of VX's operation was excellent and among other things, it was due to cadre of pilots onboard who handled themselves quite professionally.

As for you wondering why we came for less pay, less retirement, no contract, etc., you may be enlightened by looking back historically at other airlines. MANY airlines, at their startup, e.g. Southwest, FedEx, Spirit, did not offer industry standard compensation - no, management is never going to make it that easy.

VX management made us promises that we would share in the airline's success down the road and to offset the lower initial pay, they made the effort to ensure that our Schedules and QOL were pretty good. We weren't happy with everything, but for the most part we took them at their word UNTIL it started to become clear that management was not holding up their end of the bargain.

There were guys who were skeptical about Management from day 1 and trust me, we had many debates online, in the bar and in our homes about the many broken promises and how to address the situation. We had one union drive fairly early on that failed and then finally we prevailed on the second try and voted ALPA onto the property. We were then in the process of starting negotiations with the company as a unionized group when AS bought us.

It took us 10 years, and from what I have read somewhere, it takes about that long for an airline to go from non-unionized to unionized. So I'd humbly like to clarify for those who don't know VXs history, that we were NEVER content with our package and we voiced our displeasure from day 1 and in some respects that worked. We pressured them to do more and they were very strategic in giving us just enough each time to quell the group for a while until it came to critical mass and we decided to take steps to unionize.

So no, we were not content to accept low wages because we were happy with our QOL, rather, the very good QOL along with the promises of better pay, profit sharing etc, made us willing to give management time to make good on them. ONCE IT BECAME CLEAR THAT THEY WERE NOT FORTH COMING, IT WAS ON!

I guess, VX pilots are really just shocked at how bad Alaska's pilot contract is as an 83 year old Legacy Carrier. There are QOL provisions in some Regional Carriers that are better than AS's(ours)!

Now for those folks who keep on harping that Virgin pilots should be glad because we won the "lottery", I'll say this.. My W2 was 260k last year averaging 15 - 18 days off with an excellent QOL. Some made less obviously, but there are quite a few guys who made more. I want to have the CHOICE to work hard or not and not be restricted by the powers that be.

I want to be able to build/customize my own schedule in one shot. Not have someone build a bunch of lines and then say: "Here choose one!" Even the number 1 guy under Line bidding can get the Days Off he wants, or the Trips he wants, but not both. He can't get days off on Tues to Thursday in one week and then the Weekend off the next. And most pilots under Line Bidding have to be fiddling with their schedule for a good part of the month, trying to get it right. And what good is trip touching, if you still have to make up back to 75 hours as opposed to being "Pay Protected" as it should be?

So again, no VX pilots did not win the lottery. I may make 300k this year, but what good is that if my schedule goes down the drain, I am unable to spend quality time with my family and I hate my job?

A better pay rate is only half of what it takes to be happy in a pilot's job.

Originally Posted by Packrat

I guess you could always quit. Its not indentured servitude after all.

Originally Posted by All Bizniz

While I wouldn't call AS guys weak, spineless, clowns, there is an acknowledgement even on the AS side, that management have gotten the better of the pilot group over the years and consequently there is this "shell shocked" reluctance to put up any more resistance as there is this belief that no matter what, management always finds a way to get around you.. It seems like or at least I am hopeful that this time will be different and collectively we will be able to make meaningful gains in the upcoming contract negotiations.

As far as your criticism of VX pilots go, I would like you to consider these points:
Pilots came to the VX startup in '06, '07, '08, etc for many different reasons. If you recall, airlines were folding and pilots were being furloughed. NOBODY was hiring EXCEPT VX, so some came for that reason. Others came for the rapid command upgrade, among other reasons.

One thing I am sure of however, is that the overwhelming majority of the pilots hired at VX were/are not bottom of the barrel guys and in fact quite a few have been hired or went back to the majors when they were recalled. In essence the safety and quality of VX's operation was excellent and among other things, it was due to cadre of pilots onboard who handled themselves quite professionally.

As for you wondering why we came for less pay, less retirement, no contract, etc., you may be enlightened by looking back historically at other airlines. MANY airlines, at their startup, e.g. Southwest, FedEx, Spirit, did not offer industry standard compensation - no, management is never going to make it that easy.

VX management made us promises that we would share in the airline's success down the road and to offset the lower initial pay, they made the effort to ensure that our Schedules and QOL were pretty good. We weren't happy with everything, but for the most part we took them at their word UNTIL it started to become clear that management was not holding up their end of the bargain.

There were guys who were skeptical about Management from day 1 and trust me, we had many debates online, in the bar and in our homes about the many broken promises and how to address the situation. We had one union drive fairly early on that failed and then finally we prevailed on the second try and voted ALPA onto the property. We were then in the process of starting negotiations with the company as a unionized group when AS bought us.

It took us 10 years, and from what I have read somewhere, it takes about that long for an airline to go from non-unionized to unionized. So I'd humbly like to clarify for those who don't know VXs history, that we were NEVER content with our package and we voiced our displeasure from day 1 and in some respects that worked. We pressured them to do more and they were very strategic in giving us just enough each time to quell the group for a while until it came to critical mass and we decided to take steps to unionize.

So no, we were not content to accept low wages because we were happy with our QOL, rather, the very good QOL along with the promises of better pay, profit sharing etc, made us willing to give management time to make good on them. ONCE IT BECAME CLEAR THAT THEY WERE NOT FORTH COMING, IT WAS ON!

I guess, VX pilots are really just shocked at how bad Alaska's pilot contract is as an 83 year old Legacy Carrier. There are QOL provisions in some Regional Carriers that are better than AS's(ours)!

Now for those folks who keep on harping that Virgin pilots should be glad because we won the "lottery", I'll say this.. My W2 was 260k last year averaging 15 - 18 days off with an excellent QOL. Some made less obviously, but there are quite a few guys who made more. I want to have the CHOICE to work hard or not and not be restricted by the powers that be.

I want to be able to build/customize my own schedule in one shot. Not have someone build a bunch of lines and then say: "Here choose one!" Even the number 1 guy under Line bidding can get the Days Off he wants, or the Trips he wants, but not both. He can't get days off on Tues to Thursday in one week and then the Weekend off the next. And most pilots under Line Bidding have to be fiddling with their schedule for a good part of the month, trying to get it right. And what good is trip touching, if you still have to make up back to 75 hours as opposed to being "Pay Protected" as it should be?

So again, no VX pilots did not win the lottery. I may make 300k this year, but what good is that if my schedule goes down the drain, I am unable to spend quality time with my family and I hate my job?

A better pay rate is only half of what it takes to be happy in a pilot's job.

Originally Posted by KnockKnock

Biz, before this goes any further, understand I have not once said any VX pilot is "bottom of the barrel, regional scum, punks" or any of the other names that are being thrown around on here. I'm also not criticizing VX pilots. If you go back and read this thread from page one, I'm responding to the few posters that resort to calling the AS pilots clowns, spineless and weak. I think that it's quite hypocritical to throw around garbage like that when, no matter how you slice it, you and all other VX pilots accepted less in a number of areas, in order to work there. One poster said he accepted less because his QOL was "in another Universe" another poster said he accepted less because he was having fun at work and now you're saying you accepted less because there was a promise of more later. Now please understand, I'm not judging you or any others for your decisions. This has nothing to do with thinking any less of you or VX in general. My point is solely that you disqualify yourself from telling anyone else they are weak or spineless for accepting less when you yourself have accepted less. Neither pilot group has the moral high ground in this whole thing. Both groups have overlooked sub par language in order to maintain their perceived QOL or whatever other motivating factors drove them to do so. With that said, neither group can rightfully say the other is weak or spineless. So as I said earlier in this thread, do we continue to call each other weak or do we fight for better, TOGETHER???

Originally Posted by EskimoJoe

I've never voted for a contract here. However, the answer to your question is rather simple. The group felt that under those specific circumstances, and that specific time in history, the offer on the table, in aggregate, was as good as it was going to get. This management team DOES NOT negotiate. Sure. We can hold out, leaving millions of dollars on the table in the hopes that years down the road, we might be able to strike...an extremely remote possibility, but still not impossible. Or you take what you can when it's available. Those are the only two choices you have.

Unless and until outside forces influence management enough to overhaul our scheduling system, they won't. They WILL NOT. They don't care about any complaints, they don't care what you think, they don't care if people resign, they only care about maintaining control. As W2 wage earners under the umbrella of the RLA, there's very little that we can realistically do to alter their intractable position. A Yes vote does not mean an full throated endorsement, it just mean's "good enough for now". I've always voted no on the principle of our payrates and this fabricated "need" that we be under compensated related to other Legacy carriers. I can't get passed that.

Originally Posted by KnockKnock

Biz, before this goes any further, understand I have not once said any VX pilot is "bottom of the barrel, regional scum, punks" or any of the other names that are being thrown around on here. I'm also not criticizing VX pilots. If you go back and read this thread from page one, I'm responding to the few posters that resort to calling the AS pilots clowns, spineless and weak. I think that it's quite hypocritical to throw around garbage like that when, no matter how you slice it, you and all other VX pilots accepted less in a number of areas, in order to work there. One poster said he accepted less because his QOL was "in another Universe" another poster said he accepted less because he was having fun at work and now you're saying you accepted less because there was a promise of more later. Now please understand, I'm not judging you or any others for your decisions. This has nothing to do with thinking any less of you or VX in general. My point is solely that you disqualify yourself from telling anyone else they are weak or spineless for accepting less when you yourself have accepted less. Neither pilot group has the moral high ground in this whole thing. Both groups have overlooked sub par language in order to maintain their perceived QOL or whatever other motivating factors drove them to do so. With that said, neither group can rightfully say the other is weak or spineless. So as I said earlier in this thread, do we continue to call each other weak or do we fight for better, TOGETHER???