Pros and Cons of Allegiant
08-15-2021, 04:01 PM
#121
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Joined APC: Mar 2016
Position: Gear Biatch
Posts: 276
Good assessment. It's a shame management behaves the way they do. They are constantly stepping over dollars to pick up dimes when it allows them the opportunity to spite pilots... Unfortunately our contract is very poorly written with lots of grey areas and has some glaring holes (such as no duty day limit for DHs etc, shifting reserve days off) that allows them to constantly take advantage of us. Hopefully that will change with the next contract but it may take 3-5 years.
08-15-2021, 09:53 PM
#122
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Joined APC: May 2016
Posts: 1,015
08-16-2021, 05:39 AM
#123
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 2,020
What's the point of having a new contract when the company just ignores it and says "see ya in court 18 months from now"?
The union is close to 50% on winning arbitrations. We have lost some significant ones lately, like the VFN conflict thing. Maury has figured out that this union of ours has limited funds, despite the slush fund we give them, so he's just going to throw spaghetti at the wall and arbitrate everything and run up their bills as much as possible. He's no longer afraid of them. A real union like ALPA with $100 million in resources could go toe to toe with Maury financially, but that's not what we have. We have one guy with a few million dollars, and a bunch of his drinking buddies helping him swat down criticism and stroke him off about how great he is.
The only thing that will change this company's attitude and latitude is if they a) stop making money or b) can't get people to come work here to the point that it cancels flights. Until then, its status quo for them. What they are doing works and they don't care if we are happy because pilots are still out there hustling and saving gas and making them millions. Who cares when you get to sleep in your bed every night, amiright? Until their actions have consequences, nothing will change.
But at least they found "creative ways to compensate upper management" during the pandemic. The handcuffs come off in 2023!
The union is close to 50% on winning arbitrations. We have lost some significant ones lately, like the VFN conflict thing. Maury has figured out that this union of ours has limited funds, despite the slush fund we give them, so he's just going to throw spaghetti at the wall and arbitrate everything and run up their bills as much as possible. He's no longer afraid of them. A real union like ALPA with $100 million in resources could go toe to toe with Maury financially, but that's not what we have. We have one guy with a few million dollars, and a bunch of his drinking buddies helping him swat down criticism and stroke him off about how great he is.
The only thing that will change this company's attitude and latitude is if they a) stop making money or b) can't get people to come work here to the point that it cancels flights. Until then, its status quo for them. What they are doing works and they don't care if we are happy because pilots are still out there hustling and saving gas and making them millions. Who cares when you get to sleep in your bed every night, amiright? Until their actions have consequences, nothing will change.
But at least they found "creative ways to compensate upper management" during the pandemic. The handcuffs come off in 2023!
08-16-2021, 09:06 AM
#125
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Joined APC: Aug 2020
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 670
Ok, so I've posted before the "Updated" Pros and Cons for anyone that's interested. Again, I will do my best to not be slanted, bias, or much less an emotional little b***.
PROS:
1 - The reality is that for many of us that have been here for enough years to be senior enough in our base to hold lines, life is not bad. Could be better of course as always; the grass is always greener right?
2 - Average days off for us line holders is 12-14 days off on really heavy flying months,and14-20 days off on lighter months. Yes, living in base makes a WORLD of difference. Commuting even if you're senior is never fun, much less when all you do is day trips. So you can imagine how it is when you're junior and on reserve.
3 - Pay isn't terrible, yes, we are the lowest paid Airbus pilot for the time being. This will change at some point, you can take that to the bank. But nonetheless, its a livable wage... of course, if you're in debt up you arse then any pay will never be good enough.
4 - Medical benefits are not bad. Could be cheaper per month, but for the coverage it's not bad.
5 - The crews you fly with are 98 to 99% great, you'll form a comradery, and makes those long hard days easier to go deal with. Yes there are a few odd balls, but they are rare.
6 - The flying is over all very easy, can be a bit monotonous at time, but frankly it's an easy job 75 to 90% of the time. Of course, I'm sure the bigger bases deal with more BS than the smaller ones.
7 - Airplanes are overall well maintained. I know, I know, some will say other wise. Most likely the opinion will come from some of the pilots in the larger bases. But anyone that says or implies that we fly POS all the time or that you're pushed into flying something illegal, well, that's just not true.
8 - Lots of growth on the way which means lots of movement, not "conventional" sort of speak, but growth nonetheless.
9 - Our union does a decent job, again, the grass could be greener. But our exco along with the stewards are good guys. Just need a little more "spunk" IMHO.
10 - This is a good place to hang your hat if that's what you wish, or at least it's a great stepping stone if you have "bigger" plans for yourself.
CONS:
1 - Management. I'll leave it at that. Well, I wont; look, they're not evil sort of speak, but the way they operate when they want something can be so spiteful, and frankly poisonous that not only does it kill the morale of many, but it creates a retaliatory work force. They've been know to say sweet things to your ear with a loving smile while while pushing the dagger in your back. So many of us just do our jobs to what is required, and don't go above and beyond for them.
2 - Small base model. Not gonna dive to much into this bc enough has been said. But although the small base concept works great for junior pilots to upgrade, it hoses many of us that all we want is to upgrade in our home base.
3 - Work Rules/Contract in general IMHO need some MAAAAAJOR improvements. Management is more than willing to throw more money at us in pay, 401K matching, yada yada yada, but are not looking to improve work rules. They like to have absolute control.
4 - Bidding "Software", and I use the word software very lightly because it's not a real software program. It's a cookie cutter ******* program that they don't want to give up because they can manipulate and control.
5- Constant, purposeful contract or MOU violations, the just comply then grieve mentality in this place just astounding! Read CON #1.
6- Flight pairings. Although this is not a complete CON, in some of the smaller bases, some of the pairings are 4 leg'rs that are of low value with long duty days. But then again, some pairings are single pairings valued high... like anything else, it all depends on what your seniority can hold.
7- Reserve rules and staffing here SUUUUUUUCK. Because of the business model, and how they like to staff the company reserve coverage is always understaffed, and SOMETIMES almost none-existent. In Destin for example, you can have 7 or 8 flights in the morning and have only one poor bastard covering all of them on R330! You can also have 5 o 6 afternoon pairings, sometimes more and have NO afternoon reserve coverage. And it doesn't matter at all how senior you are on reserve. You will work more than you would on reserve at any other respectable Major Airline.
8- Upgrade time. It doesn't matter if they try to sell you that the upgrade time is fast. You won't upgrade here in a reasonable time unless you're willing to go to another newer, smaller, crappy base. So if you plan on coming here because you currently live in Orlando, FLL, PIE, LAS, LAX, IWA then for the love of everything that's holy, please, stop asking how long before you can upgrade in ANY of the larger bases! The truth is, you probably wont. Some say 10 to 15 years? I'm gonna go with, probably never UNLESS those bases double in size. And even then, if you come on board NOW? you probably wont hold it, and if you do be ready to be on reserve in the back of a Larry limo for the remainder of your career.
9- Small base model, once again, unless you live there and can upgrade there, well...I think we beat that dead horse enough.
So there you go, I'm sure I missed something, but that is the honest truth. Now, I'm gonna answer what you're already wondering. Why am I still here? I'm not a senior captain in any base, I am a senior FO in my base, and yes, I'm one that will take an upgrade in another smaller base and most likely commute to my current home. So why? why in the hell would I do that which I have pointed out as a CON?
Simple, I've already invested 5+ years in this company, I would hate to start fresh elsewhere which would once again make me junior. Being junior at a legacy makes you susceptible to furlough, which will happen again, you can bet on that. My family and I are pretty flexible when it comes to the commute since we homeschool. So we can ride things out while earning more money. As long as my wife is still supporting this, and my kids are well off, then we can do it. This of course is an absolute personal choice, not something that I would recommend because everyone is different, everyone's spouse is different, goals and priorities are different. For now, it works for my family and me.
Best of luck to everyone and anyone that chooses Allegiant as a career or stepping stone. Don't let anyone feed you bull (positive or negative), I've given you a complete, honest and transparent description the the best of my personal ability.
Fly safe.
PROS:
1 - The reality is that for many of us that have been here for enough years to be senior enough in our base to hold lines, life is not bad. Could be better of course as always; the grass is always greener right?
2 - Average days off for us line holders is 12-14 days off on really heavy flying months,and14-20 days off on lighter months. Yes, living in base makes a WORLD of difference. Commuting even if you're senior is never fun, much less when all you do is day trips. So you can imagine how it is when you're junior and on reserve.
3 - Pay isn't terrible, yes, we are the lowest paid Airbus pilot for the time being. This will change at some point, you can take that to the bank. But nonetheless, its a livable wage... of course, if you're in debt up you arse then any pay will never be good enough.
4 - Medical benefits are not bad. Could be cheaper per month, but for the coverage it's not bad.
5 - The crews you fly with are 98 to 99% great, you'll form a comradery, and makes those long hard days easier to go deal with. Yes there are a few odd balls, but they are rare.
6 - The flying is over all very easy, can be a bit monotonous at time, but frankly it's an easy job 75 to 90% of the time. Of course, I'm sure the bigger bases deal with more BS than the smaller ones.
7 - Airplanes are overall well maintained. I know, I know, some will say other wise. Most likely the opinion will come from some of the pilots in the larger bases. But anyone that says or implies that we fly POS all the time or that you're pushed into flying something illegal, well, that's just not true.
8 - Lots of growth on the way which means lots of movement, not "conventional" sort of speak, but growth nonetheless.
9 - Our union does a decent job, again, the grass could be greener. But our exco along with the stewards are good guys. Just need a little more "spunk" IMHO.
10 - This is a good place to hang your hat if that's what you wish, or at least it's a great stepping stone if you have "bigger" plans for yourself.
CONS:
1 - Management. I'll leave it at that. Well, I wont; look, they're not evil sort of speak, but the way they operate when they want something can be so spiteful, and frankly poisonous that not only does it kill the morale of many, but it creates a retaliatory work force. They've been know to say sweet things to your ear with a loving smile while while pushing the dagger in your back. So many of us just do our jobs to what is required, and don't go above and beyond for them.
2 - Small base model. Not gonna dive to much into this bc enough has been said. But although the small base concept works great for junior pilots to upgrade, it hoses many of us that all we want is to upgrade in our home base.
3 - Work Rules/Contract in general IMHO need some MAAAAAJOR improvements. Management is more than willing to throw more money at us in pay, 401K matching, yada yada yada, but are not looking to improve work rules. They like to have absolute control.
4 - Bidding "Software", and I use the word software very lightly because it's not a real software program. It's a cookie cutter ******* program that they don't want to give up because they can manipulate and control.
5- Constant, purposeful contract or MOU violations, the just comply then grieve mentality in this place just astounding! Read CON #1.
6- Flight pairings. Although this is not a complete CON, in some of the smaller bases, some of the pairings are 4 leg'rs that are of low value with long duty days. But then again, some pairings are single pairings valued high... like anything else, it all depends on what your seniority can hold.
7- Reserve rules and staffing here SUUUUUUUCK. Because of the business model, and how they like to staff the company reserve coverage is always understaffed, and SOMETIMES almost none-existent. In Destin for example, you can have 7 or 8 flights in the morning and have only one poor bastard covering all of them on R330! You can also have 5 o 6 afternoon pairings, sometimes more and have NO afternoon reserve coverage. And it doesn't matter at all how senior you are on reserve. You will work more than you would on reserve at any other respectable Major Airline.
8- Upgrade time. It doesn't matter if they try to sell you that the upgrade time is fast. You won't upgrade here in a reasonable time unless you're willing to go to another newer, smaller, crappy base. So if you plan on coming here because you currently live in Orlando, FLL, PIE, LAS, LAX, IWA then for the love of everything that's holy, please, stop asking how long before you can upgrade in ANY of the larger bases! The truth is, you probably wont. Some say 10 to 15 years? I'm gonna go with, probably never UNLESS those bases double in size. And even then, if you come on board NOW? you probably wont hold it, and if you do be ready to be on reserve in the back of a Larry limo for the remainder of your career.
9- Small base model, once again, unless you live there and can upgrade there, well...I think we beat that dead horse enough.
So there you go, I'm sure I missed something, but that is the honest truth. Now, I'm gonna answer what you're already wondering. Why am I still here? I'm not a senior captain in any base, I am a senior FO in my base, and yes, I'm one that will take an upgrade in another smaller base and most likely commute to my current home. So why? why in the hell would I do that which I have pointed out as a CON?
Simple, I've already invested 5+ years in this company, I would hate to start fresh elsewhere which would once again make me junior. Being junior at a legacy makes you susceptible to furlough, which will happen again, you can bet on that. My family and I are pretty flexible when it comes to the commute since we homeschool. So we can ride things out while earning more money. As long as my wife is still supporting this, and my kids are well off, then we can do it. This of course is an absolute personal choice, not something that I would recommend because everyone is different, everyone's spouse is different, goals and priorities are different. For now, it works for my family and me.
Best of luck to everyone and anyone that chooses Allegiant as a career or stepping stone. Don't let anyone feed you bull (positive or negative), I've given you a complete, honest and transparent description the the best of my personal ability.
Fly safe.
08-17-2021, 08:22 AM
#126
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 2,020
Judging by the posts every day by pilots getting screwed, it appears the company has gone on the offensive and completely thrown the contract out the window. Scheduling people on their 7th day and telling them to grieve it now? Wow.
This is just the beginning. This is how they plan to apply pressure in negotiations. It's going to get ugly. Wait until they start taking hostages (firing people). The negotiations playbook is to crush the pilots, and completely overwhelm the union until they cave and give the company what they want. It won't happen, but it's going to get ugly.
Anyone thinking about coming here should be aware of this.
At some point, we may get released and the company will be looking to hire scabs in case we strike.
08-17-2021, 02:37 PM
#127
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,269
Pros and Cons of Allegiant
Im an outsider, so don’t really know the whole situation with the union at Allegiant but I used to be at a regional where we were represented by the teamsters and I’ll say without a doubt that the support ALPA national offers us at Spirit is multiple levels above what we had with the teamsters. Each airline is different and a union is only as good as it’s elected reps and it’s unity as a pilot group but ALPA national has helped a lot more than anything I ever saw during the better part of a decade under the teamsters.
Either way I hope you guys and gals knock it out of the park with your next contract. A rising tide lifts all ships…
08-17-2021, 02:50 PM
#128
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Posts: 559
I don't think things are as dire as Marg paints them.
The union has plenty of money. The problem is, the previous local was run like a high school student council, and 2118 is still getting the infrastructure and people in place to be successful. Also, there's only so many cases that can be arbitrated per month, regardless of your budget.
The language in our current CBA is a joke relative to our peers - it was never meant to be great, just a way to get a foot in the door. I have no doubt the next contract will solve most of our issues. There are plenty of contemporary examples of previously slummy airlines, with horrible pilot contracts, that are now the envy of the industry. The old Pinnacle airlines is now Endeavor. Jetblue and Spirit pilots have the same pay and in some cases, better work rules than the majors. Kalitta has a fantastic contract, after decades of being treated like garbage and staying in motor-lodges on layovers. Same thing will eventually happen for Allegiant. The main question is, will people stick around long enough to see it? In the next year or so, pretty much anyone will have the opportunity to go to mainline.
The union has plenty of money. The problem is, the previous local was run like a high school student council, and 2118 is still getting the infrastructure and people in place to be successful. Also, there's only so many cases that can be arbitrated per month, regardless of your budget.
The language in our current CBA is a joke relative to our peers - it was never meant to be great, just a way to get a foot in the door. I have no doubt the next contract will solve most of our issues. There are plenty of contemporary examples of previously slummy airlines, with horrible pilot contracts, that are now the envy of the industry. The old Pinnacle airlines is now Endeavor. Jetblue and Spirit pilots have the same pay and in some cases, better work rules than the majors. Kalitta has a fantastic contract, after decades of being treated like garbage and staying in motor-lodges on layovers. Same thing will eventually happen for Allegiant. The main question is, will people stick around long enough to see it? In the next year or so, pretty much anyone will have the opportunity to go to mainline.
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