Pros and Cons of Allegiant
03-08-2021, 10:37 AM
#71
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 1,853
Originally Posted by 310skying
I do realize our last contract was under 44... I wasn’t referencing our contract. Though at the time we did get industry leading rates, just bad work rules and holes you can fly a spruce goose through. It was our first contract, we didn’t have Urban or AR at the table. The contract I was referencing under 45 were NK an F9, 45 was never going to release them for a strike and the NMB was stacked against labor. 44 was more labor friendly than 45, but not even close to as labor friendly as 46. Look at what he’s done to the NMB and the NLRB in less than a month, let alone pushing for a union in AL. 44,45,46 aside we already have a major dispute in the works as an additional pressure, a 90+ % arbitration win rate, a union that deals with 6-7 more grievances than any other airline in the US, a unified pilot group, a law firm that intimately knows our contract flaws now, our own local, our own bank acct and our employer is the most financially sound airline in the US ( F9 is an unknown) it might take 3-5 years but hopefully even the neigh sayers like margaritaville will be pleasantly surprised.
03-08-2021, 10:54 AM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A320
Posts: 1,347
Originally Posted by captnate702
Trying to minimize the furlough and the jerking around that occurred to our bottom 150 is not helpful and does not build solidarity. They were treated as pawns by management - and to a lesser extent the exco. I expect management to do that, they've never cared at all about anything but the stock price. I didn't expect our exco and pilot group to be so nonchalant about those 150 getting put on the street.
Every airline has senior pilots that talk and think like that. To say that all senior pilots did is the same as saying all 150 junior pilots demanded we take concessions to keep them around.
The concessions demanded by management here at Allegiant would have set a precedent for all airlines to ignore seniority. Sorry I am not that important and neither are you.
If you are going to blame the union for furloughing I can’t wait for how you react to the company propaganda during contract negotiations.
03-08-2021, 11:25 AM
#73
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,848
Originally Posted by 310skying
I do realize our last contract was under 44... I wasn’t referencing our contract. Though at the time we did get industry leading rates, just bad work rules and holes you can fly a spruce goose through. It was our first contract, we didn’t have Urban or AR at the table. The contract I was referencing under 45 were NK an F9, 45 was never going to release them for a strike and the NMB was stacked against labor. 44 was more labor friendly than 45, but not even close to as labor friendly as 46. Look at what he’s done to the NMB and the NLRB in less than a month, let alone pushing for a union in AL. 44,45,46 aside we already have a major dispute in the works as an additional pressure, a 90+ % arbitration win rate, a union that deals with 6-7 more grievances than any other airline in the US, a unified pilot group, a law firm that intimately knows our contract flaws now, our own local, our own bank acct and our employer is the most financially sound airline in the US ( F9 is an unknown) it might take 3-5 years but hopefully even the neigh sayers like margaritaville will be pleasantly surprised.
At Spirit we opened section 6 in the beginning of 2016 and applied for mediation in June 2016. Our mediator assigned to us was Cathy McCann, an Obama era hire.
As 2016 turned into 2017, we were assigned a senior mediator to assist Cathy McCann, Patricia Simms; she is another Obama era hire to the NMB
FREEEEEEEEZE......Thats Spirit airlines pilots being put on ice twice by the NMB. Did the Obama appointed mediators require the company to come back to the table..nope, we had to ask to get back tot he table while the company saved $19m a month under the existing contract vs their current offer.
By the end of 2017, Linda Puchala, The Chairman of the NMB, came in to assist negotiations. She is a staunch union supporter and was the head of the AFA years back. She is also from the Obama administration. Democratic nominees to the NMB was 2-1 during this time. Trump had not made any appointments.
Trumps 2 appointments came after all of the mediation was completed. Linda Puchala, the long serving union loving NMB chair was the one who took us to the end. At no time was a mention of "cooling off period," or "self help" ever mentioned. We were never close. Why? Because all 3 of the above mentioned women felt that the company was negotiating in faith, and there would not be strike.
Why did I go through this history, because you are naive and not understanding how things are done. Have you ever been through a real contract negotiation? With NMB mediation? Your attempt to suggest Spriit was influenced by Trumps NMB is blatantly incorrect, as I pointed out and maybe you can show some humility to your fellow Allegiant pilots and stop over promising something everyone knows wont be delivered, no matter who sits in the White House.
I award you no points.
03-08-2021, 02:39 PM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 647
Originally Posted by labbats
Every airline has senior pilots that talk and think like that. To say that all senior pilots did is the same as saying all 150 junior pilots demanded we take concessions to keep them around.
The concessions demanded by management here at Allegiant would have set a precedent for all airlines to ignore seniority. Sorry I am not that important and neither are you.
If you are going to blame the union for furloughing I can’t wait for how you react to the company propaganda during contract negotiations.
The concessions demanded by management here at Allegiant would have set a precedent for all airlines to ignore seniority. Sorry I am not that important and neither are you.
If you are going to blame the union for furloughing I can’t wait for how you react to the company propaganda during contract negotiations.
I am not blaming the Union at all for rejecting the STTO; I am blaming the Union for waiting until pilots were on the street to extend the voluntary ETO. No one on the fb page or the stewards has been able to explain why we waited so long to extend the ETO after we agreed to it for April-August.
03-08-2021, 04:37 PM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Position: Hoping for any position
Posts: 2,504
Originally Posted by CincoDeMayo
Looks like Mama was wrong again....
At Spirit we opened section 6 in the beginning of 2016 and applied for mediation in June 2016. Our mediator assigned to us was Cathy McCann, an Obama era hire.
As 2016 turned into 2017, we were assigned a senior mediator to assist Cathy McCann, Patricia Simms; she is another Obama era hire to the NMB
FREEEEEEEEZE......Thats Spirit airlines pilots being put on ice twice by the NMB. Did the Obama appointed mediators require the company to come back to the table..nope, we had to ask to get back tot he table while the company saved $19m a month under the existing contract vs their current offer.
By the end of 2017, Linda Puchala, The Chairman of the NMB, came in to assist negotiations. She is a staunch union supporter and was the head of the AFA years back. She is also from the Obama administration. Democratic nominees to the NMB was 2-1 during this time. Trump had not made any appointments.
Trumps 2 appointments came after all of the mediation was completed. Linda Puchala, the long serving union loving NMB chair was the one who took us to the end. At no time was a mention of "cooling off period," or "self help" ever mentioned. We were never close. Why? Because all 3 of the above mentioned women felt that the company was negotiating in faith, and there would not be strike.
Why did I go through this history, because you are naive and not understanding how things are done. Have you ever been through a real contract negotiation? With NMB mediation? Your attempt to suggest Spriit was influenced by Trumps NMB is blatantly incorrect, as I pointed out and maybe you can show some humility to your fellow Allegiant pilots and stop over promising something everyone knows wont be delivered, no matter who sits in the White House.
I award you no points.
At Spirit we opened section 6 in the beginning of 2016 and applied for mediation in June 2016. Our mediator assigned to us was Cathy McCann, an Obama era hire.
As 2016 turned into 2017, we were assigned a senior mediator to assist Cathy McCann, Patricia Simms; she is another Obama era hire to the NMB
FREEEEEEEEZE......Thats Spirit airlines pilots being put on ice twice by the NMB. Did the Obama appointed mediators require the company to come back to the table..nope, we had to ask to get back tot he table while the company saved $19m a month under the existing contract vs their current offer.
By the end of 2017, Linda Puchala, The Chairman of the NMB, came in to assist negotiations. She is a staunch union supporter and was the head of the AFA years back. She is also from the Obama administration. Democratic nominees to the NMB was 2-1 during this time. Trump had not made any appointments.
Trumps 2 appointments came after all of the mediation was completed. Linda Puchala, the long serving union loving NMB chair was the one who took us to the end. At no time was a mention of "cooling off period," or "self help" ever mentioned. We were never close. Why? Because all 3 of the above mentioned women felt that the company was negotiating in faith, and there would not be strike.
Why did I go through this history, because you are naive and not understanding how things are done. Have you ever been through a real contract negotiation? With NMB mediation? Your attempt to suggest Spriit was influenced by Trumps NMB is blatantly incorrect, as I pointed out and maybe you can show some humility to your fellow Allegiant pilots and stop over promising something everyone knows wont be delivered, no matter who sits in the White House.
I award you no points.
Im not pointing any of this out to say we are better or G4 sucks. I only say it to temper your expectations. We literally were in the best position we could have been. They were interviewing 8-12 a week and 4 would show up for class. They were doing job offers on the spot at job fairs in Vegas. As you pointed out, profit margins in the 20-30% range. And what did we get? Solidified crappy work rules and few bucks. It was very telling to see the group vote about 82% in favor and then start complaining the company was not following the contract. There is a reason most airline contracts are 300-400+ pages and G4’s was less than 200. There was too much room for interpretation. I wish you guys luck but I think your best days are behind you.
03-08-2021, 05:23 PM
#76
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,848
Originally Posted by fishforfun
Politics aside, it’s important to point out that G4 in one category, had a higher pay rate than a few carriers did and I believe it was only a couple year categories.. Until we all completed our negotiations and G4 went right back to the bottom. I spent a lot of time comparing the offer we got vs other airlines and it was abysmal when you took away the rates and even then the writing was on the wall for G4 to fall way behind as soon as Spirit and JB completed their negotiations.
Im not pointing any of this out to say we are better or G4 sucks. I only say it to temper your expectations. We literally were in the best position we could have been. They were interviewing 8-12 a week and 4 would show up for class. They were doing job offers on the spot at job fairs in Vegas. As you pointed out, profit margins in the 20-30% range. And what did we get? Solidified crappy work rules and few bucks. It was very telling to see the group vote about 82% in favor and then start complaining the company was not following the contract. There is a reason most airline contracts are 300-400+ pages and G4’s was less than 200. There was too much room for interpretation. I wish you guys luck but I think your best days are behind you.
Im not pointing any of this out to say we are better or G4 sucks. I only say it to temper your expectations. We literally were in the best position we could have been. They were interviewing 8-12 a week and 4 would show up for class. They were doing job offers on the spot at job fairs in Vegas. As you pointed out, profit margins in the 20-30% range. And what did we get? Solidified crappy work rules and few bucks. It was very telling to see the group vote about 82% in favor and then start complaining the company was not following the contract. There is a reason most airline contracts are 300-400+ pages and G4’s was less than 200. There was too much room for interpretation. I wish you guys luck but I think your best days are behind you.
03-08-2021, 05:38 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Position: Hoping for any position
Posts: 2,504
Originally Posted by CincoDeMayo
What in God's name are you talking about. Why did you quote my post? Clearly states im at Spirit, and......ugh..nevermind....
03-08-2021, 06:18 PM
#78
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,848
Originally Posted by fishforfun
No ****, it was a pile on of your points. I was adding that even though everything you pointed out was true it didn’t matter who was where. As soon as spirit got their contract it put G4 back at the bottom. I don’t know the politics of the NMB but I’m very familiar with G4’s initial contract and how it came about. So, I was pointing that even with the NMB you pointed out, G4 couldn’t muster a decent contact then, how are they going to now?
He has a lot to learn in the end.
03-10-2021, 06:01 AM
#80
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 1,853
Originally Posted by Beech Dude
Can a current Allegiant Bubba PM an HR contact I could email for an update question? My POC from last year's process is giving me an undeliverable message. Thanks!
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