LGA Town Hall
05-24-2019 | 06:10 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,450
Likes: 0
From: Airbus button pusher
If you listen carefully during one of the questions about recalls it addresses one of my points about this combined IAM TWU agreement. Several airports had hit cliffs requiring increased staffing due to mainline flight numbers. This is a big deal. As more mainline flights go in and out of stations, it may require swapping Envoy for mainline staffing AND hiring other support staff such as facilities maintenance and is a huge component of our costs. 1/4 of the company is union ground handling and facility maintenance. Yes we have unionized ground maintenance workers who work on jetways and ground power etc. This is one reason the company continues to pursue using Envoy RJs over mainline 100 seaters or even increased jets of any type. I remember hearing somewhere Isom I believe stating they were happy with the fleet size moving forward and would simply up-gauge as needed in the future.
Yet look at all the pilots that "support" the ground handlers. It's insane. No other airline employs unionized "stock clerks" that distribute parts. Or do grounds maintenance. Etc.
IMO the APA, SWAPA, ALPA, etc have all gone about this bargaining incorrectly. They needed to take a page from the AMA and restrict pilot supply. The 1,500 rule was a gift from god himself. Higher barriers to entry have accomplished what decades of bargaining never even came close to doing. That is how you accomplish meaningful lasting wage and benefit gains.
Looking at those videos I can imagine myself in Isom's shoes when the NYC subway worker says they are going to fight. He's going to get a huge wake up call when they strike, the company locks them out and says "bye Felicia!" and puts thousands of management and support staff to work (and contracts out with other ground handling companies or just starts another one). *Poof* no more union workers!
I had no idea Isom came from NWA. It's all coming together now.
On a side note that NYC subway worker embodies unionized workgroups. Look up some articles on NYC and LI subway workers and not only their yearly pay but retirement pensions. They are soaking the local government and taxpayers and shut down public transportation on a whim. They have no competition and as such can afford to do this. If they shut AA down we are f'd. Everyone at AA will lose. These people are directly impacting our lives and economic futures so people without a HS diploma with zero invested in their "career" can load pieces of luggage and make $70k a year doing so.
I guess that makes me an ahole to think like that.
Yet look at all the pilots that "support" the ground handlers. It's insane. No other airline employs unionized "stock clerks" that distribute parts. Or do grounds maintenance. Etc.
IMO the APA, SWAPA, ALPA, etc have all gone about this bargaining incorrectly. They needed to take a page from the AMA and restrict pilot supply. The 1,500 rule was a gift from god himself. Higher barriers to entry have accomplished what decades of bargaining never even came close to doing. That is how you accomplish meaningful lasting wage and benefit gains.
Looking at those videos I can imagine myself in Isom's shoes when the NYC subway worker says they are going to fight. He's going to get a huge wake up call when they strike, the company locks them out and says "bye Felicia!" and puts thousands of management and support staff to work (and contracts out with other ground handling companies or just starts another one). *Poof* no more union workers!
I had no idea Isom came from NWA. It's all coming together now.
On a side note that NYC subway worker embodies unionized workgroups. Look up some articles on NYC and LI subway workers and not only their yearly pay but retirement pensions. They are soaking the local government and taxpayers and shut down public transportation on a whim. They have no competition and as such can afford to do this. If they shut AA down we are f'd. Everyone at AA will lose. These people are directly impacting our lives and economic futures so people without a HS diploma with zero invested in their "career" can load pieces of luggage and make $70k a year doing so.
I guess that makes me an ahole to think like that.
05-24-2019 | 10:55 AM
#13
Thread Starter
Line Holder
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 592
Likes: 1
Exactly! If I were them I would be ****ed that we were tied to them...just one more thing Delta doesn’t have to deal with, they get to outsource EVERYTHING. Someone correct me if I am wrong but I believe their pilots are the only unionized work group they have...? But on the flip side Delta does a great job of “taking care of” their employees with the huge PS. I doubt Bobby and Dougie would do the same.
05-24-2019 | 01:45 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 4,153
Likes: 341
Just support your fellow union employees. How pi$$ed off would the pilots be after 5 years into the merger with no contract?
You look at them and think some of their proposals and asks are silly, but I can promise you that they look at pilots the same way... with some prima donna stuff in our contract too. Do you want them to support us when we are battling it out with management or not?
I understand the importance with seeing both side's point of view in situations like this.... but I certainly agree with the mechanics on this one. The company is downright greedy in outsourcing their jobs. The company would outsource everything up to the B777/A330 to the "regionals" if they could. Would you let them, or put your foot down and fight?
You look at them and think some of their proposals and asks are silly, but I can promise you that they look at pilots the same way... with some prima donna stuff in our contract too. Do you want them to support us when we are battling it out with management or not?
I understand the importance with seeing both side's point of view in situations like this.... but I certainly agree with the mechanics on this one. The company is downright greedy in outsourcing their jobs. The company would outsource everything up to the B777/A330 to the "regionals" if they could. Would you let them, or put your foot down and fight?
The company will sign Delta or United ground contracts right now. Would we be negotiating if the company offers that?
They are being insanely unreasonable. I don't support unreasonable.
The mechanics are tied to them, and are getting screwed. That is on them for tying up with the ground handlers and stock clerks.
Honestly at this point I welcome self help and a company lockout. I don't see it getting resolved any other way.
05-24-2019 | 01:59 PM
#15
Banned
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
"The company will sign Delta or United ground contracts right now. Would we be negotiating if the company offers that?
They are being insanely unreasonable. I don't support unreasonable"
It is like you are my evil twin. For the support your union brothers pilots out there, what if they asked for a thousand dollars an hour? I know thats a crazy number but the point is there is reasonable and unreasonable. They seem to be on the unreasonable side of the equation and thats not a good place to be.
They are being insanely unreasonable. I don't support unreasonable"
It is like you are my evil twin. For the support your union brothers pilots out there, what if they asked for a thousand dollars an hour? I know thats a crazy number but the point is there is reasonable and unreasonable. They seem to be on the unreasonable side of the equation and thats not a good place to be.
05-24-2019 | 02:11 PM
#16
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 5
From: CA
Airline employees will never enjoy the leverage that the LIRR,NYC Subway, or NYC Sanitation enjoy. They strike and people are instantly affected. There isn’t an alternate subway to take, an alternate commuter train or another carting company to remove trash. AA mechanics go on strike? Guess I have to take Southwest out of Dallas today or Jetblue to Bermuda. Not the end of the world for the traveling public.
05-24-2019 | 07:09 PM
#17
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
From: A320 CA
So pilots can understand what management is trying to do to the mechanics:
For every position retired or resigned, they have the right to OUTSOURCE that work to ABC Airplane Maintenance Company.... or Eagle, or whoever.
In other words if there are 30,000 mechanic jobs right now and 1000 retire this year, next year there are 29,000 jobs and the rest is outsourced. It would continue down that slippery slope.
Imagine that if every time a senior pilot hit age 65 and retired, the slot that a new hire would take to replace went straight to the regionals.
The seniority list and pilot group would shrink daily. The seniority list would be half the size in about 5 years.... giving all those jobs outsourced to the regionals. Eventually there would be no mainline jobs left... they would all be outsourced.
Would pilots ever go for that? He!! no!
So why the heck do you think mechanics would vote yes for this union busting proposal?
For every position retired or resigned, they have the right to OUTSOURCE that work to ABC Airplane Maintenance Company.... or Eagle, or whoever.
In other words if there are 30,000 mechanic jobs right now and 1000 retire this year, next year there are 29,000 jobs and the rest is outsourced. It would continue down that slippery slope.
Imagine that if every time a senior pilot hit age 65 and retired, the slot that a new hire would take to replace went straight to the regionals.
The seniority list and pilot group would shrink daily. The seniority list would be half the size in about 5 years.... giving all those jobs outsourced to the regionals. Eventually there would be no mainline jobs left... they would all be outsourced.
Would pilots ever go for that? He!! no!
So why the heck do you think mechanics would vote yes for this union busting proposal?
05-24-2019 | 07:20 PM
#19
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2019
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
From: A320 CA
Every other work group rides our coat tails. The fact there are even mainline or regional/eagle flights is because of the pilot scope contract. If we were to sign away scope it would mean FAs, DXs, ground crew go away completely. And you want me to support a group that has zero invested in a "career" throwing bags? I'm sorry but no. They owe us, we don't owe them anything.
The company will sign Delta or United ground contracts right now. Would we be negotiating if the company offers that?
They are being insanely unreasonable. I don't support unreasonable.
The mechanics are tied to them, and are getting screwed. That is on them for tying up with the ground handlers and stock clerks.
Honestly at this point I welcome self help and a company lockout. I don't see it getting resolved any other way.
The company will sign Delta or United ground contracts right now. Would we be negotiating if the company offers that?
They are being insanely unreasonable. I don't support unreasonable.
The mechanics are tied to them, and are getting screwed. That is on them for tying up with the ground handlers and stock clerks.
Honestly at this point I welcome self help and a company lockout. I don't see it getting resolved any other way.
I always get a kick out of major pilots who think that their paycheck, schedule and lifestyle are all a product of their hard work alone. It is not. It is the product of pilots and union workers combining forces with the labor union. It is the product of collective bargaining. It is the product of protecting your job (scope). So, the mechanic, ground workers, FAs success is our success.
"They owe us, we don't owe them anything."
Just listen to yourself.
A union is only as strong as its weakest member. Please don't side with management and be our weakest member.
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