This whole thread is a prime example of why pilots will never beat lawyers at the negotiating table. We get caught in hypothetical crap. 12 pages of nonsense, pure speculation and opinions (opinions that mean nothing at the end of the day). 12 pages of in the weeds garbage.

Managememt could care less what a line pilot thinks of the flow, either for it or against it. Unions don’t care what a line pilot thinks of the flow, either for or against it. What a waste of time. Here’s the bottom line

THE FLOW IS NOT GOING AWAY AND IT WILL NOT BE CHANGED TO SUIT SOME LINE PILOTS OPINIONS!!

How bout we focus on the task at hand (section 6 negotiations) instead playing “if I was king for day” distractions

That’s a wrap guys. No more opinions from pilots allowed. Shut it down APC

I don't really see how this is related to negotiations...at all. But you're absolutely right-the flow is not going away anytime soon.

As of Oct 2019, the most recent data on the aapilots hiring stats page, it’s 263 military, vs 363 flow.

The issue here isn’t hires rule, flow-ers drool.

It’s more like first-round draft pick versus second. Imagine if the saints signed The whole freshman class at Alabama, but anyone who had a first round draft pick could go elsewhere.

That’s assuming all flows have been turned down by every other legacy, which isn’t true. You just assume that no other airline would want us. Some like myself wanted to go to AA over United or Delta. I didn’t waste my time applying to jobs I didn’t want. That doesn’t mean I couldn’t have ever gotten those jobs. We all know that pretty much the only reliable way to AA as a civilian is to flow. I’m not sure why people care, the flows are just as qualified as anyone else.

Not by the usual industry metrics.

What are the usual metrics? Envoy flows have been flying American planes and passengers for about a decade already. If I’m qualified enough to be a LCA and captain at Envoy, I’m qualified enough to be a 737 or 320 FO at AA. I bet that the average flows qualifications are on par with what Delta and United hire guys with.

I also knew of several regional FO’s over the years that got hired at Delta and United with 0 TPIC, the flows are much more qualified than that.

As a matter of technical skill, perhaps. But be careful not to come off as entitled. No one, especially your 737 or 320 CA, is going to want to hear it.

I don’t mean to come off as entitled, but a lot of people in this thread are implying that if you are a flow then you are undeserving of being here and no one else would hire us. I was just pointing out that not all flows are flowing because this is the only way we can get to a legacy airline. A lot of us flow because we want to work at AA and the flow is how you do it as a civilian.

I don’t believe the rub is with a flow not being qualified. More of a need to set eyes on someone to see if our Captains will want to choke them out by the 4th day. Perhaps a guaranteed number of class slots for those that have passed a interview in “flow” order. While interviews won’t catch all bad apples it would be worth it if they got one.

Being I am merely another peon my opinion is of little to no significance.

It appears most of the WO pilots wait for AA because they coincedentally become competitive for the majors after the 5-7 yr mark in time. They realize they can simply step into AA rather than go anywhere else. Many live in AA bases already. And, they are VERY aware of the attrition at AA.
It is a very compelling reason to wait for the flow for those hired 5-7 yrs ago. I totally get it.
Five and more years flying an ancient 145 in the northeast makes them very experienced aviators.

Some flows are jerks. Some military guys are jerks. Some street hires are jerks. The bulk of each group is outstanding. If someone slips past the training department with a ****-poor attitude or technical skill, it’s up to the Captains they fly with to give them a come to Jesus talk. If they still can’t cut it, write them up. Why is this so difficult?

How do you “write up” someone?

I can tell some good flowback stories.... Carry on!

I think it has less to do with that and more to do with the flow thru being the path of least resistance. If the end outcome is the same (job with mainline) then most do not really care to go out of their way to get there, especially if it involves any significant amount of effort (finishing a degree, interview prep course, job fairs, etc). At least that is what I have seen with the pilots that I personally know flowing up.

There are ambitious go getters and then there are those waiting around because it's easy.

Who cares if they finish a degree, pay for an interview prep course, or go to a job fair? As long as they are good to fly with and a good pilot, then why would anyone care about those other things?

I would venture to guess Pro-Standards.

Lets offer another analogy: halloween candy

You come home with all your goodies. You eat 10% of your candy. Is the rest of it crap that no one would eat? No. It’s candy. It’s yummy. Sure maybe there’s one or two crappy things but it’s yummy candy.

BUT ... the bestest yummiest candy mostly gets eaten first. Not all of the good stuff. Not saying what was left is bad. But stuff that goes first is most of the awesome stuff.

You're right, nobody does care at all. However you stated that "a lot of us" are flowing up because they want to work for AA, and from the pilots that I know personally (and would venture to guess this applies to pretty much everyone over there), they just want a guaranteed avenue out of the regionals and on to a career airline. That same flow thru could be to DL, UA, Alaska, FedEx, etc...and most pilots would not care any less since it's low risk and easy. Hence the path of least resistance comment. It is what it is.

And good for them, it leaves other options off the table but the general consensus is that it gets them out of the regional rat race.

Turns out the flow is a “usual metric”!!

Maybe I don’t volunteer, maybe I did not get A’s in basket weaving and accounting, maybe I don’t know anyone at AA.

Maybe I don’t care.

But I can check a box that says “did you go to a WO until your number came up”

CHECK

None of those maybe’s take away from someone’s ability to aviate. Nor do any of the above make you a better aviator in any way shape or form. Don’t kid yourself!!

After 11,000 hours and 25,000 landings I can fly a plane.

Thats not a good analogy. Once again, you are assuming that all flows are trying to get out of the WO to the first airline that calls and only flow if no one else calls. That's not true. A lot of the flows have no desire to go to anywhere but AA and AA pretty much only hires through the flow or military. We all weren't passed up by United, Delta, UPS, and FedEx. They didn't get to cherry pick all the good candidates and AA is left with just ok ones. A good portion of us never even apply to those places because we didn't want to work there.

Sure if a guy has a competitive resume to all those other airlines and is still a long way to flow, then they would be dumb to not apply to the others. However, if a guy still needs time at the regionals to be competitive and AA is their 1st choice then there is nothing wrong with waiting to flow. Think of it as their interview is successfully working at a WO for around a decade. If they have attitude problems, they will probably wash out before their probation year is over. I'd bet that is a very small percentage.

I fail to see the problem with this. As long as they are a good pilot and good to work with, then why does it matter if someone chooses the safer route? Seems smart to me. Personally, I wouldn't have ever considered an LCC or ULCC because that is not where I wanted to spend the rest of my career and didn't want to risk getting stuck there. Also I promise that there was nothing easy about working at Envoy for 8.5 years, but it got me to where I ultimately wanted to be, so I'm grateful for the opportunity that it gave me.

The AA Flow-Thru Agreements MUST END
 

But can I get along with you on a 4 day trip???? Or are u a questionable personality!

Flying is the easy part in this job!

FedEx and others ask for extensive criteria in hiring for good reasons! AA WO Flow simply a bottom line (financial) gimmick. They could not care less about personality qualities. Just a number to fill the bottom line and push through training as quickly as possible. Not saying fog a mirror & your hired minimum criteria. But still a numbers game in a dwindling pool.


If AA WO pilots are completing flights on time and doing it cheaply then it’s logical to hire those same pilots via the flow to get the job done and to do it cheaply in the future for Mainline (is the purpose of flow & managements strategic thought process :). PERIOD.

There is absolutely no problem with this, but you are further proving my point while contradicting what you stated earlier in that most of the flows really want to go to AA and nowhere else. This is simply not the case or most of those pilots would be applying and making a serious effort to get in the door as quickly as possible.

For example, take one of my friends who was hired off the street at AA a few years ago and recently became one of the youngest CAs, if not the youngest, at American. Do you think that guy went to Envoy and waited on a flow thru program? Dude really wanted to be there and made it happen without the flow.

I'm genuinely happy that you ended up where you ultimately wanted to be, but don't kid yourself that everyone else feels the same way about AA being the end all be all for themselves. Again from my experience and the pilots THAT I PERSONALLY KNOW, none are making a concerted effort to get there outside of the flow program. It does not make any one of them any less of a pilot, it just is what it is. They evidently just don't want to be at AA that badly, but will gladly take it as a handout. Like I said earlier, the path of least resistance. Pilots are lazy by nature and we know this because we're all pilots. You can't BS the BSer.

Hopefully everyone wants to do a good job and get it done. I’ll let you guys decide on how cheap.

We can get along just fine. When I show up I’ll say Sir or Ma’am and please and thank you. I will be very happy to be in the right seat.

I hide it very well. Just thank god there are no 150 day pairings. I tend to to break down by the 150th day in a row at work.

Believe what you want, personally AA was always my first choice and I went to American Eagle to try to get a foot in the door at AA before the flow even existed. I didn’t go to Envoy for the flow, but I also didn’t leave for an LCC or ULCC because of it. Which is exactly why it exist. AA was always my first choice and I didn’t even apply anywhere else, not because I’m lazy but because I didn’t want to work anywhere else. It’s not that we weren’t good enough to get hired somewhere else. I know for a fact there are others like me.

You say we are lazy by waiting for the flow, but by the time most people are competitive for a legacy job they are already about to flow. Good for your friend, AA does not hire many people from the WO outside of the flow. I know of a few, but it’s pretty rare. AA doesn’t hire many from anywhere that isn’t from the flow or military. There’s nothing wrong with getting in off the street either if you can, so that’s good for him.

There’s a lot of self-righteousness in this thread. Some just want to feel superior to the flows because they got hired the traditional way. Whatever the reason someone chooses to flow to AA, it doesn’t automatically mean they are an inferior candidate than someone hired off the street. Which is exactly what some are saying, by their candy and milk and cream analogies.

I don’t understand why there has to be different groups within the pilot group. Everyone has a path that eventually led them to where they want to be, and personally I enjoy hearing different stories. I’ve had awesome trips and trips where I could not wait to be done flying with guys from all backgrounds.
I know of guys who turned down jobs at other legacies because the flow was so close. Others that have flowed to AA have since left to be where they really wanted to be. There will always be the select few who cause issues, however I believe that’s a minority.
Instead of focusing on who’s here or should be here I say we all come together as a collective pilot group and focus on things that really matter.

Thank you. Very well said.

I second that!!

I can’t believe there’s been 15 pages of arguing over something that we have no power to change.

Ok, let us hear a couple, crossing the Atlantic is boring.

From my past experience at a WO here’s what I know. The regionals were hiring anyone. These guys were sometimes extremely unpleasant people but the interviews had become a joke. These guys may be great pilots, but even after the flow and their talent, still suck to fly with. Everyone that I know of that was hired outside of the flow did it through their respective recruiting departments.l or unions. They showed interest in their company and helping it, not just collecting a paycheck. And so AA picked them up. Why? Because people like this are great for the company. These people will try to make it a better place and show customers why they should fly for American. The ones in the flow American HAS to take. But this is why other airlines want to see you trying to be there and show involvement and that you genuinely want that airline. Those are the kind who will for the most part promote that brand at any opportunity, and not just show up to collect that paycheck and go home. Not to say all flows don’t care about the company, but the majority don’t and it shows through their lack of effort to do anything other than just flow. In my opinion the flow must go argument has nothing to do with skill or experience, we all have that. But it has more to do with the people you let in and how they will help or what image of the company they will project. I was entirely against the flows before they started and still am. Not just for the lazy guys being rewarded and the end of their regional tenure, but because those who seriously don’t care were given a premier job as well.

How long exactly have you been at AA, and which actual airline did you interview with? Just curious, sounds like you were here since at least ‘97 since you said you were against the flow since before it started? Or were you taking about PSAs piggy back flow they sold out for like everything else after the merger?

To say most flows don't care about the company is flat out incorrect. Most pilots I know who flowed over DO care about the company and its success and DO work hard to give the passengers the best possible product despite some of the constraints/roadblocks set up by the company.

^^^^^this right here.

**Every** flow FO I’ve flown with have been nothing but professional and darn good sticks too. No issues whatsoever. They’re all very glad to be here.

One rivaled Delta’s Captain Hollywood for PA’s at zero-dark AM stating at the end, “you’re in good hands ladies and gentlemen...I’m a furloughed American Airlines pilot.”

Another had zero time as a part 121 captain.

Another told me (7 year FO at the time), “you know, all of you Eagle guys should be on the street. We should have all the seats, not just the left ones.” We had several hundred on the street at the time.

Rumor says there was a scuffle in Chicago in or near the crew lounge between a FB and Eagle pilot, but can’t remember the details.

Glad it’s over now. It was a lifetime ago....

I’m just telling you what I saw in my years working at the WO. Some were just sloppy and lazy, despite being great pilots. But that was ok to them because they had a guaranteed job waiting on them. My point was that everyone keeps talking about how they have just as much experience as the next, but still aren’t getting picked up and how it’s impossible to get hired outside the flow. Which is not true.

Ok let me guess then. PSA? Sounds about right.

There was the flowback back in ~2006 who didn't want to wait for the ramp freq to clear him to taxi off of G19, so instead he just spun a hard right off the gate, and wedged his RJ onto a concrete barrier that he didn't notice. A month or so later some genius spray-painted "flushback mountain" onto the barrier. It remained there for over a year before it was painted over.

Overall though the flowbacks were very good to fly with.