No, He's going to airbus training.

Get it right.

Flew with a guy a few weeks ago who got hired by Fedex and turned them down. He was within a year of flowing and AA offered better QoL, bases, etc for his situation, so I guess when the situation became real he and his wife decided to wait out the flow.

This is essentially what I was saying in an earlier post. There are A LOT of guys that by the time their apps are competitive, they're also close to flowing. If AA is their preferred destination, they just wait it out. And that, I can understand.

I've even flown with a couple pilots who AA wasn't their preferred destination and when their preferred destination (United for one, Delta for the other) finally called when they were a few months from flowing, they were miffed enough at "NOW you're interested?" that they just went ahead and flowed. Now I think THAT is nuts.

I mean really let’s think about it here...

Most pilots are within 18 months to flow by the time they’re competitive to be hired at another legacy or one of the majors or cargo carriers like FedEx and UPS. And even then you’re talking thousands spent on a resume re-write, application review, and interview prep. Plus the cost and time invested in job fairs etc.

And if your airline of choice is American then why wouldn’t you stay? Not to mention if you’re within 12 months a lot of guys look at the fact that they’ll get the 401K match first year if they flow compared to going somewhere else and not having that. Not to mention years of service for lifetime travel etc.

The real battle at the WOs is convincing junior Captains and senior FOs from leaving to LCCs like Frontier and Spirit and airlines like JetBlue and to some extent some of the ACMIs. Right now there really isn’t much incentive to stay so turnover is high in that segment of the pilot group and the WOs are spending a small fortune in training costs

At our WO regional, we are losing lots of LCAs in the 6 months prior to flow to the other legacy and cargo airlines. Those that put in the effort and work hard tend to get picked up pretty quickly when they reach about 5 years on property. LCA, good flight time, clean record, and putting in a little effort with applications. All of this costs a couple thousand dollars, but means hundreds of thousands and significant improvement in QOL due to higher seniority for the next 25+ years at their legacy carrier later on. This few thousand dollars is a very, very small price to pay.

Although there are a few pilots that are great and are content to wait out the flow, the majority of the flows would NEVER get hired by a legacy. At the same time, most of the best pilots that we could send to AA are hired by Delta or FedEx (or the last dozen LCAs to get picked up by United in the last few weeks).

As you know Chrisreedrules, we are losing more senior guys to legacy airlines than we are junior pilots to places like Spirit and Allegiant.

I disagree with that.

I run into very few people who wouldn't 'make it' at a legacy. I also run into a ton of legacy pilots that are weirdos, courtesy of the mergers. Us Air, Continental, and Air Tran weren't known for their difficult hiring standards. Northwest had a flow from compass/mesaba.

Biggest weirdos I fly with are LAA.

I know a few too.

What I'm getting at is the OTS interview isn't a very good gate for bad personalities. The biggest psychos to fly with are often great conversationalists on the ground.

what airline other than AA withholds 401k until after year 1? pretty sure Delta, spirit, and Jetblue all start day 1. i would guess UAL too

Anyone close to flowing to AA within one year would be crazy not to. They can always leave IF anyone else calls. But they are surfers just teeing up to catch that HUGE wave about to carry them to a possibly amazing career.
The attrition is huge and undeniable. This point in time for hiring is absolutely the best EVER seen at any airline, ever.

USAir in the day was extremely difficult to be hired at. Same with Piedmont. AA had the permanent B scale, and a lot of people wouldn't be bothered with them. Who wanted to work with a pilot who sold out your entire career to a lower pay scale.

DC9 drivers at AAA were pulling down a solid 120 a yr. Piedmont was right there too. That buying power in the 1980 s was a Cadillac a month. And the pension was tops.

Well I have access to some data you may or may not. And I can assure you that the flows from your WO aren’t just the “leftovers”. Most flows are just as, if not more qualified than many off the street hires at AA. The myth that flow pilots are just lazy and less desirable pilots and don’t want to bother applying anywhere else because they have a “free” job waiting on them etc is a fallacy.

TWA and Pan Am used to be tops too. I guess you could go back to flying boats and Super Constellations.

Unless another Carl Icahn (TWA) takes over, I don’t see anything like that happening.

Nice ... all mil pilots have served as officers in their respective service and have experience that general aviation cannot ever give in leadership, adaptability, and have the ability to learn new things quickly. yes we are happy to be hired but to say we blindly follow orders is a fallacy.

the most vocal anti union pilots i have met are prior military ( and i work for a non union shop) i think the point was that there are plenty of 20 year officers who get out and still have the mentality that they are supposed to do what mgmnt says and that unions are bad ( i can think of a few i know personally who feel this way, 1 of whom recently got hired by AA) i think there is a better argument prior mil guys work against the interest of a union vs flow through. this person was replying to a dumb comment saying flow throughs work against the interest of a union.

aslo being an airline captain for a regional certanly gives some invaluable experience in leadership and dealing with challenging situations. never been in the military but ive held numerous leadership roles both in and out of aviation. military avaition is demanding and produces great skill sets like the ones you mentioned in pilots, but saying that is exclusive to military pilots is a fallacy

You are right and point welL taken.. being a captain of a regional is experience no military pilot coming straight from the service will.. there are goods and others military flying.. especially Tactical aviation brings.

Back to the OP
What is the average TT flow throughs have at time of flow?.. and PIC? The OP was discussing stopping the flow.. any discussion of doing UAL type where an interview is guaranteed... just not a job . That would make a lot of sense to me. My interview at the regional ( a WO of AA) was a joke. Asked me to read a TAF and brief an approach... that was it!.. not sure if it was the same for other applicants that day with little to no PIC. At least having to do the fit assessment / face to face interview could weed out the odd balls.

You're talking nonsense. The flow has existed for decades, it's not changing. If it bothers you that much, Delta is hiring. All that information has been posted in this thread, and many others like it.

Tatum has explicitly said in interviews that staffing the W/O regionals is priority #1, and the flow does that. If you mess with it, people will jump to the LCC's overnight.

Eagle regionals do more departures a day than AA mainline, we're getting to a point where the cart is pulling the horse.

Departures by hub:

DFW 915 59.3 % mainline
ORD 546 40.1 % mainline
DCA 255 31.8 % mainline
PHL 417 42.4 % mainline
LAX 210 66.2 % mainline
LGA 174 47.7 % mainline
CLT 688 46.1 % mainline

I can’t speak for PSA and Piedmont, but the guys currently flowing from Envoy definitely did not have that kind of interview experience. It was a very thorough interview in 2011. Experience levels probably also vary by which regional people flow from. Current envoy flows were hired in 2011. I think current piedmont and PSA flows were hired around 2014 or 15. Most of the Envoy flows probably have around 5-7k total time and 1.5-2k 121 PIC. I don’t know what the others have.

Have you noticed how many odd balls there are around here that were hired at American, US Air, US Airways, America West, Eastern, Trump, Reno, TWA, Empire...did I leave anyone out? (Piedmont didn't hire any odd balls :D ).

There will always be some that slip through. If they cannot fly for AA, they should not be flying for a WO. And for those that slip through, we need to make sure we catch it during initial training and probation.

Do other folks in other industries trash their peers as much as pilots do?

No kidding... I don’t get why so many trash their peers in this profession. This thread is a joke. No matter how you got here, this profession tends to weed out almost all of the weak performers well before you ever get to your “final job”. At this stage we’re all just about the exact same. And as for weirdos, I’m sure there everywhere in every profession, it’s just that it’s harder to hide when your sitting 2 feet away from each other for 4 long days with not much else to do but have long conversations about just about everything and anything.

:confused:

:D

You mean like Doug Parker? He's taken every airline he ever ran through bankruptcy.

I’m no fanboy, but you’re way off base...unless you’re implying he’s gotten every airline he’s ever ran OUT of bankruptcy.

DP and America West. Saving airlines from bankruptcy since 2005.
Also, great to see those hiring numbers! Looks like the fastest way to AA will now Not be to go to PDT Psa or Envoy.

Nothing much has really changed. The percentage of flows has dropped off a little bit. It’s still the fastest way if you aren’t prior military. The vast majority of those hired off the street will be prior military.

That being said I think there is a “window” that is currently open at the moment for civilian off the street hires... Many pilots haven’t even bothered to apply at AA due to the slim to none chance of being hired off the street. So right now if they were to apply and we’re competitive I’d say their chances haven’t been better to be hired for the past several years. Though personally I know of 3 pilots just hired outside our flow at PSA. So even if they aren’t all flows my gut tells me a lot will still be from the wholly owneds.

Agreed


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Yes. Quite a few from PSA getting hired outside of the flow at AA right now.

Well I wouldn't call it quite a few...In 2019 a total of 20 were hired off the street from all 3 WOs. That may change with more street hiring in 2020 though.

Yes, and more than 1/2 dozen just from PSA in the first 2 months of 2020.

So prediction is there will be a increase in off street non military?

How can it be anything else? All services are already below their average historical number of authorizations due to sequestration, yet they haven’t kept even those fewer authorizations filled. Post BRAC they lack the bases, airspace, and instructors to increase training from their theoretical max of 2000 per year fixed wing pilots, and even if they had the bases, instructors, and MONEY to do it, it would be a decade before most of those people would fulfill their ADSC and be able to get out and work for the airlines.

With record high retirements from the airlines and record low military flyers becoming available in the next decade, you damn right there will be an increase in OTS non military.

The only mathematically possible way for it to be otherwise would be for the services to release more pilots from their own active duty service commitments and aggravate their own shortages and THAT ain’t going to happen. Far more likely they will go STOPLOSS to freeze people ON active duty than to release any early.

Yeah, but with what sort of stats? If they’re folks with 4000+ TT/1000-1500+ TPIC/maybe a check airman letter, then that’s virtually the usual profile of minimally competitive legacy hires. That’s maybe five years at a regional, which isn’t too different from the optimal flow time. So maybe they’re getting hired, but at about the same point that United or Delta would have looked at them.

If they’re guys who were military trained but needed currency, then they really don’t count. (Example: Eagle had a USAFA grad with KC-135 command time who spent about a year here to get current and hired outside flow.) We’ve all heard about “so and so got hired at xyz,” but gotta look at the whole picture.

Of course they are all "qualified" as we all would expect. They have 4000 hours, most are Check Airmen, etc... Exactly as you would expect. And many are getting picked up more than a year before flow.

Not sure what your point is. It just seems that AA may be pulling more from the AA WO regionals than just the flows, and much more than the 20 hired last year.

Get your hours, move up the rank, work in a position more than just line pilot, and get hired at AA well before the flow. Hard work pays off.

The point is that it is different than the hiring AA has done in the past.

Not to open this can of worms again, but just an anecdotal viewpoint. I know quite a few pilots from WOs that have been hired outside of the flow and 100% of them fall within one of two categories: LCA with other notable resume qualifiers OR Mom/dad is a captain/LCA/CP at AA.

Of those that I know hired because of their lineage to a current AA pilot, there is a surprising number of them that failed some aspect of the interview/application process or had black marks in their personnel file from the WO and were still pushed forward and hired. These same folks also would not have been competitive to be interviewed and hired off the street compared to those that normally get hired.

It is what it is and I'm working on getting up and out as well (I just wish I had a mommy or daddy CA at AA! :D)

I would expect to see the WO flows increase, especially from Envoy, over the next few years as the retirement wave keeps getting bigger.

We've just about finished up all projected growth here at good ol PSA, unless AAG starts to shuffle from MESA. Wouldn't be a bad time for a flow increase...….

I’m sure they have plenty of the off the street interest, why increase flow which costs more for the WO to train replacements? Genuinely curious not being a Jerk