Because we have incompetent union leadership.

Do you mean mediation because why would we agree to arbitration? If I left PSA for Delta I wouldn’t spend so much time being butthurt and posting about APA not agreeing to a staple, I would just move on and concentrate on Delta issues.

Negotiation Update
 

No, because raises are increases above inflation. Keeping up with inflation is breaking even, or a cost of living adjustment (COLA). Not keeping up with inflation is negotiating a pay cut. Raises would be inflation+. When inflation is flat, 3-5% would be a pretty good increase. When inflation is double digits, it’s not.


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Mediation should have already come and gone. I said arbitration for a reason. I’m not butthurt about anything, I’m happy where I’m at. But I was close to the situation that has unfolded and I have a unique perspective on it. Delta has issues but they basically pale in comparison to what’s happening at AA.

so I went to bls.gov and used their CPI Inflation calculator. I put in my pay rate on Jan 2019 in the calculator and then it generated what that would have to be in todays dollars…it was 17.5% higher. So we would have to get pay rates over 17.5% higher than our current rate to see a “raise”. Look I am all for getting as much as we can, but I just don’t see the company pushing across the table a 18/3/2 offer…maybe they will…but what I think would be smart is to get as much as we can along with great QOL and language and have a snap up provision with no cap. Also need to limit this contract to like 3years(plus raises for every year after so they are forced to negotiate), every month that goes by we are just falling father behind. It’s the time value of money that pilots(unions in general) don’t understand. We should have signed the supposed deal back in 2019 and we would be back negotiating again now instead of still negotiating. You think we are going to be “made whole” for the last 3 years? We are not, that is money lost and gone…but I am perfectly fine with them saying no to the current offer, it is a joke of an offer. What is my personal YES vote threshold? I don’t know bc it’s not just payrates I am concerned with. Most US companies give “raises” in the 3% range with a lot of experts expecting this to go to an avg of 4% or maybe even 5-7%. Notice how I put “raises” in quotes, it’s bc it has nothing to do with inflation, it is simply a percentage that is currently higher than one’s current salary. But inflation is at historic highs right now so everyone wants to beat the inflation drum but historically “raises” were never calculated as current salary + inflation + increase. It was and is, simply, current salary + increase.

Negotiation Update
 

If you’re ok with making less money than you did a few years ago and calling it good, then I guess that’s ok. Time value of money is very real and applies to the last few years, but it also applies when setting the bar too low for not just this contract, but the starting point for the next one. And for every one after that. Compounded for the rest of your career. Accept nothing less than full retro, signing bonus equal to that/being made whole. That is the only thing that will keep from eroding your buying power and standard of living. Maybe the company won’t push 18/3/2 across the table (which is probably too low in subsequent years anyway), but that means the pilots must do it. And if it doesn’t meet the acceptable threshold of the membership, it gets shot down and doesn’t pass.

Completely agree that the rates are not everything, and QOL improvements are just if not more important. Also in the short duration, snap-up with no cap, etc. We just can’t allow managements to get pilots to accept pay cuts in this environment. You know they will be getting inflation+ when they negotiate their pay. They’d be stupid not to.


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Show me on the doll where AAG touched you. For a DAL guy now you have a lot of bitterness towards AA. Should just move on and enjoy your double-breasted jacket and hat!

Edit: Chris not Dunkin

I can show you on the doll where AAG is touching 14,000 APA pilots. Brought to you in part by your representation, APA not being willing to read the tea leaves for what they are and work towards bringing your regional feed in house. APA is focused on the small battles and not the big war waging on their doorstep, to put it colloquially. More than any other airline American is dependent on regional feed.

Bringing your flying in-house would not only benefit APA, but the regional airlines who’s pilots fly your passengers, and the rest of the industry to boot. Instead you’re dithering with your management over raises that won’t even match inflation and certainly still leave the majority of your pilots paid less than regional pilots.

Yeah, it’s not APA’s job to be the benefactor for your regional pilot charity. Maybe you should take up the causw yourself.

If i go from $182 to $200 i wont be making less money...thats my point. You are talking about purchasing power which is different. I agree that pay raises need to take into account broad economic conditions some but to beat a drum and say inflation + I just don't think is realistic...You honestly think that if we hold the line till we get to arbitration that an arbitrator is going to give us FULL RETRO?? Or going to give us Inflation from 2019 +3%??? Honestly?! Thats not happening, its just not..I dont like our chances...thats my opinion, and some will have a different argument/opinion which is cool....but I feel like we are wasting a lot of time and negotiating capital on payrates...honestly I don't think AA can afford to fall too far behind in payrates in this environment...but hey I am just a gear puller so I don't really know $***.
...for what its worth i think we are working towards a common goal obviously.

That isn’t the point. The regional pilots getting seniority numbers as part of any absorption of the flying would simply be a reality. There’s no other way to staff the aircraft in the next several years without them. The point is that there is real leverage in an absorption for APA .

You call out someone else for dividing group then you claim legacy AA guys don’t sign up to be check airmen. Thats some irony.

If APA would have worked with the WO MECs and ALPA National last spring, the WOs might not have gotten as big of a raise because they might be on the bottom of the AA seniority list right now still flying CRJs to CHO but at mainline rates. But APA is more worried about protecting those precious Airbus seats for military pilots who aren't on property yet because we all know the military guys are too good to fly a CRJ even if it payed mainline rates. Can't have forner regional guys taking too many of those God-given Airbus seats. It's their birthright!

There is no reason a CRJ at a mainline rate should not be the bottom plane at AA. Every couple CRJs that are parked with no Airbus or 737 added at AA risks market share loss and gives competitors a chance to come into a smaller market that already lost three out of five flights a day this year without replacement mainline flights coming in.

AA needs to move the regional flying and planes in-house or risk losing to competitors, but APA guys are fighting seniority/staple of regionals to protect military guys who aren't even working for AA.

But keep calling it regional charity. Meanwhile more AA WO regional pilots are continuing to leave to competitors than flowing or new guys coming to regionals, and CRJs and 175s are being parked, routes are cut, and competitors stand a chance to move in. Working with the WOs instead of looking down your nose at them would help fix this.

It's not like AA can just quickly add enough Airbuses to cover the rate of parked regional jets. The factories are already busy with current Bus and 737 orders. The quickest fix is to leep the regional size planes working by moving them and their pilots up to AA. Who gives a crap if the military guys ha e to be a CRJ FO to start if they are paid a mainline rate to do it.

Source? Or is this your opinion? I’m military by the way, and would be fine stapling the WO’s…stapling only. I’m not privy to any inside baseball at the APA, so never heard this was in serious discussion.

Let's be clear.. mil guys would have no problem starting on an RJ if the pay was competitive with the other airlines. I was prior mil coming to AA and we had 190s still in PHL at that time. I would have had no issue starting in the 190 had they not been in just PHL. The mil guys aren't coming to the airlines because they care about what plane they fly... they are coming for QOL and pay. If the RJs were all brought mainline and the pay was right... the mil will still come. If they were all stapled to mainline and then they were forced to be on some B scale type pay for years.. then yeah they are going to go somewhere else.

Staple. 5 Year fences. For the duration of the fence off the street new hires go to "mainline" acft unless they choose to go to an RJ. They're already paying mainline rates for RJ pilots we may as well take advantage of it. This gets the WO guys seniority numbers and the mil/off street get to choose what they want. At the end of the 5 years everything will be well integrated.

Today's RJs are more advanced and in some cases have more seats than the entry level mainline acft from 30-40 years ago like fokkers and the stubby DC9s.

Umm... 5 year fence with the WO? No thanks! Merge the 3 WO, increase flow and call it a day. WO are brining nothing to the table, what fences are you talking about?

Nope.

Long term we need to get all flying performed on behalf of AA back onto the AA seniority list. Besides, if they are all stapled behind you, what issue do you have with that whole operation being merged into ours?

As others have indicated, bring in the regional feed in house would have given APA a good deal of negotiating power. However, the time to staple came and past. WO unions wanted to work with APA and were rebuffed. WOs took pay instead. The pay is slowing WO attrition significantly, some pilots are even passing on flow now. I can’t see AAG giving up on their regional model now. WO pay will go back down in few years and AAG will have their low pay regional model for the long term. I don’t see a reason in arguing about it now. The deal is done.

The WO staffing just diverted billions away from APA and Isom is paying 50 seat RJ LCA more than 777 LCA… Bringing the WO in house would give Mainline pilots a larger piece of that pie instead of the BS 10/5/3 pay rate offer you guys got to offset the 50%+ pay raise he just gave the step children.

There is no “pie”. That is a mythical construct created by management.

What possible cooperation was needed to either allow or force a merger with AA and the WO??? Why the F would the company need APA approval? In reality, the only thing meaningful APA could offer is concessions to BUY back regional scope. Beyond that, why does management care what APA thinks on the matter? They don’t need our permission to do it…

AAG did need WO unions to sign off on the LOAs that raised the pay. WO unions wanted something else. Pay, as good as it is, is not what they were primarily after. WO unions wanted to work with APA. I think there are a number of solutions that would have satisfied the WOs before it came to raw pay. Could have been a powerful ‘joint union’ to benefit all AAG pilot groups. WO got record pay instead. APA got frustration.

To paint a clear picture. The WO unions had been working together for months to try and come up with solutions to the attrition we were all facing. We saw the opportunity to stop the attrition and simultaneously add thousands of pilots and tens of thousands of block hours back to the mainline APA purview.

It was made clear to us that American wasn’t going to entertain any discussions on this solution (which would have actually saved them money compared to what they’re doing now) without ALL parties being on board. Envoy, Piedmont, PSA, and of course APA. The 3 MECs approached APA about it during a meeting and it was made clear in no uncertain terms that APA was not interested. APA was warned that what could result is that American takes drastic measures to stop the attrition (the pay we’re all seeing) and that could harm APA. Ferguson said, “any gains for you are good for us.” or something to that effect. He was wrong then and what you’re seeing now is further proof of that.

I get it. It was the beginning of an election year for APA. No one is making wild changes in an election year. No one as bland and predictable as APA’s leadership, anyway. The ship has basically sailed at this point. APA was the roadblock. It is what it is. Another feather in the cap for the old guard at APA.

What, exactly, does it mean “to be onboard” in this context?? How could APA make the merger “more palatable” to management. The only thing I can think of is concessions. They don’t need APA permission to merge.

Sounds like somebody went hook, line, and sinker for a management spun tale.

If by somebody you mean all 3 WO MECs and ALPA National’s labor relations team with years of dealing with the exact same negotiations team as APA, then sure. For what it’s worth AA told us that APA would never sign off on it. And here we are.

But hey, keep telling yourself whatever you want. APA screwed up (again). Is anyone shocked? No. This thread is becoming tiresome honestly. Good luck on your contract.

It would hypothetically be an incredibly complex integration with the different pilot labor groups involved. Not to mention the other labor groups that AAG would have to figure out in the aftermath. If any 1 labor group got cold feet that could sink a potential negotiation for a solution such as that. Anyway, doesn’t matter now. The opportunity has passed.

Yeah, you bought off on this tall tale. No way the management wants to run anything more complex/involved than they already have. So yeah, management inventing this story and then you believing it is more believable than what you have proposed. Good for you, though.

If true, I’m guessing the APA was worried about the SLI not ending up a staple.

If you cannot understand the ramifications of all that AA flying being done in-house I don't think we need to engage any further.

How does a union get “cold feet” in a merger? Wtf does that mean?

you mean like not want to pre-negotiate an SLI and contract with an artificial time constraint?

your complete lack of knowledge regarding the situation and your condescension has come across pretty strong. Do you think that the only people with any depth of experience dealing with Jerry Glass and F&H solutions is APA? What is being mentioned above was worked on amongst the 3 MEC‘s before any plan was ever brought to American Airlines or APA. American was told in no uncertain terms that the longer it waited the more narrow its options became. So basically you either pay a boatload of money, or you work out some sort of seniority deal. Those are the only real ways to get people to stay at the regionals in the current hiring environment. The amount of money was an almost absurd amount that was presented to American management. When it became clear that APA wasn’t willing to discuss anything to do with seniority, low and behold… The seemingly absurd amount of money quickly found its way to the table.

What was this supposed “deal” that APA had to sign onto???

Did we have to agree to an SLI right then and there with the WO? You and the other guy keep alluding to this big meeting but won’t say what exactly was “the deal”….

I would assume it would be seniority numbers for WO pilots that were not yet hired by AA. That would require APA approval.

WO unions wanted to work with APA for a deal for all. Remember, most WO pilots want to be at AA at some point so a good deal for APA is a good deal for the WO pilots too. That point can't be overstated. I m fairly certain SLI was not something demanded by WO. That would be fantasy world there. But there are other things than big pay for a couple years at a regional that WO pilots would have preferred, and it didn't have to be SLI.

SLI was never something the WOs expected or were interested in discussing from what I was told.

Just come out and say what the deal was… cripes…

Cripes, there wasn’t a “deal”. The WO unions wanted to work with APA on a deal, most WO pilots will be APA pilots after all. APA wasn’t interested in a joint effort. WO pilots are now paid more than APA pilots instead. How hard is this to understand?

Yawn, you two fanboys just want your regional pilot charity hire by absorption too much to do anything other than tell an inconsistent tall tale.

yes obviously no deal, but what would have been coordinated, exactly? What coordination would grease the wheels of a merger. You’re being obtuse…