This is embarrassing. File for mediation. Only took the railroads 6 months to work through mediation and apply strike pressure and we don’t affect supply chains nearly as much. 10/5/3 is a joke, but frankly so is APA’s offer.

While we’re on it, put an end to dividing the pilot group’s compensation based on where they came from. 401k from day one for all. Even the pilots that thinks screwing new hires applies more pressure for negotiations, dividing the pilot group does not.

WO Pilot’s had previously been locked on a pay scale that reflected earning LESS than most OTS (regional) hires (except perhaps Mesa) and relentlessly given the last crack of the flight file every month for years, (lost days at outstations, min days off/ low credit lines as compared to pretty much all other non-WO) while working as an AAG employee. Anyone that is feeling left out about not receiving 401k day one at AA, could have also chosen to have worked at a WO to take advantage of the 401k at day 1 of AA, perk. OTS have their own perks they’ve enjoyed, WO flows have theirs as well. I suggest not wasting energy on trying to “correct” this perceived inequity that was (almost) literally within everyone’s control when they chose their regional to work for. Life ain’t fair sometimes.


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Yet they were given a guaranteed flow to AA while many of their peers are stuck in the Regional world. Plus pilots at WOs were given insane bonuses that their Regional peers never saw. Let's not try painting a false narrative here that WO pilots somehow suffered more than their peers lol

Anyone who spent time on reserve at PSA def deserves at least a gift card to Panda Express and a complimentary roll of single ply TP from the crew room :D

It's done
 

It's done.

Very early on the "size of the pie" i.e. total value/cost was set.

It is now down to rearranging the pie slices to get 50% +1 vote to pass.

There is no additional money to be had, only shuffling money from one contract section to another until APA/AA thinks it will pass.

It’s not the zero sum game you’re painted it as. Management can open the purse strings for all its labor…no one is forcing anyone to take a sour deal. If it isn’t good, strike authorization votes are always an option.

I guarantee they are nowhere close to done inking a deal that will touch the ballpark of 50+1 passing. It's gonna be a hard no with that crap pay increase and lack of work rules. The old timers that retire in the next 3-5 years only make up about 35% of the list.

What really disappointed is that APA didn't even have the red/redder bs removal on the table. They never agreed to it, it was shoved into (insert your colorful imagination here) us, and yet APA seems quite content...

I thought TTOT was going away and they are working on TTS 2.0 parameters?

Isn’t red/redder just for TTOT which is going away?

I hope they get trip length parameters as well - to which the company hasn’t responded to their proposal.

Yes TTOT going away. Still no transparency on when you can drop.

Negotiation Update
 

The “insane bonuses” you refer to are very recent (less than a year ago) vs 6 years of sub par pay to regional peers. I’d say you need to take your own advice about painting false narratives.

And again, it was a calculated choice for many who chose to work at a WO, that almost anyone could have chosen for themselves, just to secure that guaranteed flow. I chose ENY and commuted for 2 years from a SkyWest and Compass base (LAX) to DFW, before moving to DFW, just for flow as a back up. (No checkride failures/ no skeletons/ with a 4 yr college degree on my wall) Almost anyone could have done that if they chose to. To each their own. But to say it’s unfair for those who didn’t purposely choose that path, is being unfair to them over something like not receiving 401k as a previously employed AAG Employee, IMHO has an very entitled attitude, which is fine. Feel free to cry about it.


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I don’t think anyone really cares about the bonuses. What someone’s severance is with their old job is their own business. Once a pilot is here though, everyone should really be on the same scale with the same benefits.

That is a perk for coming to from one AAG company (ENY/PSA/PDT) to another AAG company (AA), as even AA is an AAG owned company. Given that they don’t allow flows to keep their vacation or sick balances, the 401k day 1 is nice.


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I hope you understand you can’t staple anyone under current laws. More than likely any seniority list integration would go to arbitration. No one would agree to a staple because you can’t do worse than that. Arbitration offers the hope of a improvement with zero downside.

I agree, no reason to engage any further.

Sadly I don't think some understand that.

Bingo, thank you!

Alaska..

Alaska Airlines and ALPA appear to have reached an agreement on an industry-leading pilot TA.

Pay rates:
- Year 1 FO: $104 per flight hour
- Year 2 FO: $148 per flight hour
- Year 5 CA: $290.47 per flight hour
- Top of Scale (CA DOS): $306 per flight hour

Scope:
- Vast gains
- Regional Airline limitations
- Code Share protections
- Merger protections
- Removal of arbitration requirement in the event of a merger.

Notable items:
- Holiday and ETOPS pay
- “Snap Up” clause
- “Delay pay”

So it is a "perk" that some new hires get paid more than others? Please tell me that you're joking. Hogwash, it is punishing one new hire by drastically negatively impacting their future investment potential over another new hire with the same seniority date. In what universe is that okay? It's this kind of mindset that is ruining AA along with the old guard running APA. These clowns need to go.

And yes, WO bonuses were light-years ahead of bonuses from Skywest, Republic, or Mesa for years, not just recently. Now you guys get paid triple a Republic pilot and guess what, STILL get 401K matching day one at AA. Care to explain that? Is that still a "perk"?

Exactly, every other airline does this but it is a “perk” at AA.

You obviously see it it differently. Well, ok enjoy your day.


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Actually, you're wrong, as usual. You can't involuntarily staple an acquired labor group, but they certainly can agree to it voluntarily. Usually how they are convinced to agree to that is the threat of a shutdown or dissolution of the deal. Ask the AirTran pilots.

AA and APA could certainly offer the WOs a take it or leave it staple deal, and if they turn around and demand integration, the deal goes away, and their flying gets transferred to SkyWest, Mesa, and Air Wisconsin. Checkmate.

So yeah, you can still staple people. You just can't force it on them anymore like TWA.

I think this whole merger is one big rumor.. or wishful thinking on the WO part. When and if we get a TA hopefully there's strong language when it comes to mergers and/or acquisitions. I've said it before... merge the 3 WO, realistic pay scale, and increase flow.

Nothing to add.

Just want to make sure everyone gets to see the kind of crap wages that *ALPA* thinks is fair for A320 and 737 operators.

Exactly. There's definitely not going to be an SLI if we bring the WOs with mainline. That's very wishful thinking. There will be an SLI however if they decide to consolidate WOs first prior to bring any flying in house.

LOL. The jokes write themselves around here. What was APA’s ask? 10/5/5? :rolleyes: Your pilot group has serious Stockholm syndrome.

Not saying I agree with 10/5/5. With the current proposal of 10/5/3 .. 12 year NB CA goes to $306 DOS and $330 DOT+2. Which will never pass.

Good for Alaska, bad for anyone negotiating.

Even if you can't involuntarily staple, you cannot make threats against the W/O pilot groups about giving their flying away. That ship has sailed...

There is a reason the 5-year W/O CA are getting $213.75 ... It's because NONE of the other carriers you mention can actually staff their planes.

What is a realistic pay scale? Please keep in mind that pretty much every other regional has achieved permanent pay increases to match the WO rates.

What advantage is gained for AA pilots to "increase flow" at the WOs?

What is the disadvantage for AA pilots to staple the WOs to the bottom of the seniority list?

1. What you can negotiate.

2. For the airline no more need to throw money at them and cost savings from eliminating duplicate companies to do the same job. For the pilots more of a buffer for the next furlough and more seats to upgrade into.

3.. For the airline recruiting will be hard when you're offering candidates right seat in an RJ and United is offering right seat in a 787/777. For the pilots only bringing in the undesirable regional lifers with bad records who have been turned down by every airline and having to fly with them.

If all WO become mainline I believe that will trigger a lot of other work groups’ scope clauses to lay claim to many out stations, not to mention FA’s, mechanics, etc. Unless, and I don’t think this exists anywhere, we have APA seniority pilots operating non-AA certificate aircraft.

The majority of pilots are so short sighted it’s sad. Pay rates can change with a flick of a switch, and management will have no problem doing that if they see a need for it. Just look back 5 years ago when AA unilaterally gave an 8% raise, no strings attached.

What Alaska did was focus on quality of life issues. Some are major, some minor which I think is the beauty of the agreement.

I hope it passes for the sole reason that it establishes a baseline industry wide that QOL issues are most important.

Well, they got a 15 to 22% raise depending on where they sit, so, pretty sure pay rates matter too. That’s more than double what we were offered.

Yes, but their pay was low to begin with.. with our current proposals (10/5/3) we would be on par with their pay scale. On a side note.. I don't agree with our proposed %.

that’s exactly my point…don’t look at their new rates but rather the %.

10/5/3 is AA’s garbage proposal, not APA’s..

Who said anything about APA?

APA’s 10/5/5 isn’t much better. At a *bare* minimum it should be 15/5/5, but more like 18/5/5 to retain the pay advantage AA enjoyed over AS.

You said “our current proposal”, did you not?

Do you work in management?

Agreed. Just pointing out that AA management’s offer of 10/5/3 is even more laughable than APA’s weak proposal.