reCALcitrant

Honest question guys. I haven't been through one of these. When you negotiate a new contract, can you negotiate higher pay rates than you have? Is there something that says you have to take a pay cut? If so, are most willing to leave at the same time, if they don't agree to it?

I looked at the current pay rates. Junior CA being a 92 hire, it doesn't look like the pay rates are high at all.

Can the pilots change the way this happens by being willing to leave?

Thanks in advance for the edumucation.

And sorry to the AA guys for the turmoil I'm sure this is creating.

Airhoss

There isn't a snowballs chance in HATTIE that AA pilots are going to get a contract now that is anything but concessionary. That is how and why bankruptcy works.

It sux but the pilots of AA are in for some hard times. I've been through it and I don't wish it on anybody.

LeeFXDWG

Caveat....I'm not a lawyer...but am working on it. Anyway.........

The company will, if it want's any concessions, have to negotiate in "good faith" under Chapter 11 guidlines to seek any type of contract modification. The RLA and section 6 are at a stay at this time from a pilot and company perspective. Chapter 11 places them under the "protection" of the court.

The company's desires will be presented in a "term sheet." Normal negotiations, in a way similar to section 6, will have to occur. The difference is that when in the company's mind, an impass has occured, they can file for an 1113c motion to void the contract in favor of their requirements.

The 1113c is not carte blanche for the company to do anything. In fact, the final outcome of negotiations becomes their last best offer (don't follow the misguided path of UAL ALPA). At any rate, any motion must be "fair and equitable." It cannot ask a greater percentage (you're paid more because you're a pilot...doesn't mean you have to give more like a charity) of a groups total percentage of labor costs to the company.

There are many other things, trust me. But, in the end game, if the pilots and company cannot come to an agreement, and if 1113c motion is approved, you, under the RLA, will not have a "contract" upon exit from CH 11.

That means, the day AMR exits (and based on my light reading, this will be a DIP free BK, which means a short stay), you immediately must enter section 6. That is because you do not have a contract under the RLA but a court imposed work order.

I could type for pages and pages. Hopefully, APA's lead council will be a BK lawfirm. Bring in all the airline labor "experts" you want but have BK lawyers lead the fight.

Good luck,
Lee

cgull

Lee,

I would like to add that this is what the Rail Road employees have to protect them under the RLA:

11 USC 1167 - Sec. 1167. Collective bargaining agreements

U.S. Code - Title 11: Bankruptcy
Linked as:





Notwithstanding section 365 of this title, neither the court nor the trustee may change the wages or working conditions of employees of the debtor established by a collective bargaining agreement that is subject to the Railway Labor Act except in accordance with section 6 of such Act.


About 2 years ago, CAPA was attempting to amend the RLA as it applies to Air Carriers so that in the event of a bankruptcy, labor could have the same protections as the Railroad employees have. But, ALPA, through its political contacts sabotaged CAPA, The Teamsters and the IAM's hearing before congress on 3 December 2009 and had it cancelled. ALPA fought CAPA all the way through this process.

So, because ALPA National, under John Prater did not want CAPA's, language to amend the RLA to reflect the protections as the railroad employees have, Airline Labor got nothing and American Pilots are going to suffer a worse fate than had CAPA been able to successfully amend the RLA to get the same protections as the railroad employees.

ALPA is a cancer to the Airline Pilot Profession!

Craig

alfaromeo

I am sorry but most of what you put down is wrong. You should only listen to advice from a competent bankruptcy attorney. That said, don't regard any of the above as anything close to what the law actually says.

alfaromeo

Absolute horse poop. This is all false. ALPA has worked Congress non stop to change 1113c. Try counting to 60 and tell me why it hasn't passed. (think filibuster, remember school house rock)

HSLD

Instead of throwing rocks, maybe you'd like to offer "real" information? Lee's post mirrors what I lived through, read, and understood on my company's 2003 trip through Chapter 11.

To add to what Lee said, the end game is like playing "Let's make a Deal". You have a low ball offer in the term sheet that rapes almost every aspect of your contract. Do you take it, or take what's behind the curtain in the form of the possibility the judge will approve the 1113c motion? That's the boogieman that management will infer in the best and final offer. It's a gamble to be sure, but if the company tries to negotiate FARs why not make the judge force it on you instead of agreeing to it?

swimheiss

Hopefully this isn't too inappropriate place for a really naive question. After reading most of the AA threads and reflecting on my personal opinions on where corporate America has been going, I'm going to distill this (probably overly) into a few really simple points, then ask a simplistic question that's probably too steeped in ideals and not grounded with reality. With that having been said said, here goes:
1. Managements everywhere are identifying themselves as a new "ruling class" that demands accountability from others but is accountable to no one. They make sure pay scales, bonuses, and even the company propaganda adhere to that.
2. Employer loyalty to employees is at an all-time low (everywhere, not just airlines)
3. Employee loyalty is just as low (except front-line airline employees, where seniority lists force it), resulting in frequent job-hopping in all non-airline jobs, and in airline management

Given those "truths," we have people all over the country in a lot of sectors who are switching jobs often and polishing their resumes, often getting pay increases at every hop. Airline managements seem to be getting even better at it while they chase their dreams without actually earning them via long-term performance gains.

As a pilot group, you guys are screwing yourselves by having multiple unions and seniority lists. If I had 10 yrs at job X and mastered my profession with so many work hours and various accomplishments, I could get hired at other places for MORE MONEY! You guys seem to be embracing a loyalty-based system in an environment where there's no loyalty! When the managers can get better jobs elsewhere after running your company into the ground, why can't you get a better job elsewhere after keeping your planes from doing the same thing?

I know there would be a LOT of complications to this (and this is why I warned you about the non-realistic, overly simplistic part), but what benefits could you reap by merging the unions into one, and rather than having carrier-specific seniority lists, figure out a way to have one merged seniority list?
Companies could be free to dictate base rates by aircraft type, and adjustments to base pay would come off the unified union's master list (hours flown, anything?), supplemented by bonuses for on-time performance, ave fuel burn, etc. If you left a job at airline X for airline Y, your new pay rate would be based on their base rate (for that aircraft type), and adjusted according to your unified seniority rather than going back to the bottom.
Rather than letting the managements shake you guys around, why not turn the tables?
Once again, I warned you that it would be too simple and overly optimistic, but what's life without a bit of dreaming?

Airhoss

swimheiss,

WOW you cracked the code! You are the first person to ever think of that.

While your fantasy of a combined national seniority list would have it's benefits it does not really enter anything useful, realistic or appropriate for the here and now of the AA BK situation.

So with that in mind the AA pilot group will be threatened with an 1113 filling that is almost guaranteed. You will be forced to "negotiate" with that threat hanging over your heads and your alternative to accepting concessionary terms is to go to court and let a BK judge decide your fate and then much of what can be salvaged will be at the mercy of BK judge whom will most certainly be in the companies corner as that is just how those things work. There will not be a level playing field these things have already been thought out and pre arraigned none of these proceedings are reactionary. Your fate has already been planned out long before any of these actions are taken. the companies BK law team has been working on this for a long time already.

Obviously I hope for the sake of the AA pilot group that their legal council is better than what was offered to the UAL group but in any case you are out monied, out classed and going into a fight with your hands tied behind your backs. That is the simple truth of the matter.

Call me jaded if you wish because I am, as I've seen firsthand the brutal truth of how a major corporations operates under BK protection including all the nasty little tricks and mind games they are going to pull.

Like I said the AA pilot group has my deepest sympathies this is not going to be fun.

swimheiss

After seeing your full reply in context, I see you are right. Long-term though, would a master seniority list be possible? I would think if there were one union, and one list, the companies would only be left to negotiate base rates, benefits, and bonuses. Like I said, this is all just naive thinking, and I have seen a lot of posts from pilots that show sympathy and solidarity. However, when integrated seniority lists are discussed in merger talks, all of a sudden the sharpshooting begins and everyone starts to undercut everyone else. Are you in it together or not?
I wish the best for all of you, no matter what the carrier, because it looks like the only way to the American dream as Wall St. and the "ruling class" sees it is through f###ing others no matter what. We all need to be a bunch of old bulls and f### 'em all!