eaglefly

Haven't you heard the news ?

Others here have confirmed AA pilots and the APA are powerless to do anything, so if AMR rams through a regional contract or one that parallels US Airways, how can you blame us ?

At that point each affected pilot will decide what's in their best interest and act accordingly. No one will email you got advice or your demands and you'll simply have to live with that.

gloopy

Powerless huh? So pretty soon AA Captains will get 15 bucks an hour and FO's 10, no medical, fly to the FAR's, no 401(k), all planes under 777's are outsourced, and pilots pay for their own hotels on layovers, right?

Chapter 11 is not a blank check for management. If it were, the entire industry would be under a Mesa contract.

You have bought into the fear and are willing for whatever reason to give AA management a blank check. No limits on anything, pay or scope. Just keep the seniority list alive by any means necessary even if you're not flying on it for the next 10-15 years.

I'd take liquidation over that any day.

HalinTexas

The BK judge has to see some attempt by management to renegotiate the contract before it grants an 1113(c) abrogation and impose a contract. That has not happened with anyone, yet. An 1113(e) is granted on a temporary basis if negotiations are ongoing and immediate relief is needed. AMR won't get a "blank check" unless you give it them.

Oh, and liquidation sucks. You really don't want to go there.

tsquare

This is really easy to say if this is not staring you in the face. Just sayin'

eaglefly

He's more concerned with himself........but aren't most all pilots ?

The disconnect is the expectation that others act in his best interest or for a situation that benefits him more then those affected.

* The APA isn't powerless as I've said before. OTHERS have said they are though. AMR has the most control and AA pilots will try and get the best deal they can under the circumstances. It's just that whatever deal that is WON'T take into account gloopy's desires or demands.

csh405

Being owned by AMR what would a buyout mean for eagle?

gloopy

Not really. I can do other jobs and am well prepared for a liquidation here in the unlikely event that happens anytime soon. Grew up poor and still spent more years making less than 20K than over and yet I've prepared for the realities of this industry. By the way that's what a strike vote means. You are prepared to strike even if that means liquidation. If you are not, vote no and hope for a 5,4,4,4 in good times and unlimited downside in bad times.

Management capitalizing on a labor group that can't walk away under any circumstance and is willing to gut any and every aspect of their compensation and job security, including merely for short term seniority list preservation, is the ultimate tool in a union buster's portfolio.

I would rather start over on the bottom of another list in an industry scrambling to suddenly fill 10 or 12 thousand positions than to condemn myself to being a bottom feeder for the rest of my career just for a paycheck tomorrow.

Transient MBA mercenary robber barons do not scare me nor will they ruin me. Their worst will be a mere speedbump. One that I hope to avoid but one that I'm not going to flip off the road trying to avoid.

gloopy

You couldn't be more wrong. All I'm saying is don't bow down to the fear. No 1113 or judge has ever gutted scope and management is very concerned that labor might be allowed to strike if terms aren't agreed upon. I'm not saying fall on your sword. You are the one begging management for the opportunity to fall on your sword to preserve a seniority list that you likely won't even be on for a long time (as an active employee) and when you come back it will be to the worst pay and benefits in the industry. Yet you are scared to start over if necessary?

That's like going in to a car dealership to buy a new car and telling the salesman up front that there is no other car you will consider, no other dealership you will consider, and whatever happens you absolutely have to drive it off the lot today regardless of the terms.

If you can't even comprehend the concept of walking away, you are destined to get screwed. That applies in good times and in bad in our profession.

I don't want to merge with AA. I don't want one single asset of yours either, and other than aircraft that you are dumping anyway that will be released to someone else no matter what I don't think DL will get very much if anything. I could care less about DFW because if it was that great DL wouldn't have culled it so severely and would be more aggressive right now adding their own network to it. I predict tons of Latin American capacity will be available to everyone anyway as the entire region grows to even the "crown jewel" isn't worth much to me in the long run.

And here's what you really don't get. I don't want an AA liquidation either. There would be short term benefits to all surviving carriers, including DL, but long term it would be an LCC/ULCC windfall as well as spawning and providing sustenance for several other ULCC start ups. The long term effect for DL will be negative if AA liquidates.

whatsitdoinnow

I don't think any of the regionals are that bad.... But point well taken or pretty close. Why not merge with Delta. Get a raise out of it like both Delta & Northwest guys got. Then in 2-3 years the new company will be making 3+ billion in profits per year because of less competition. Then we ask for FedEx's contract + 5%. No furloughs because by the time they get it all done age 65 retirements are kickin in.

eaglefly

Sounds great to me. It's certainly what pilots would do if they were calling the shots. They aren't. In that case, I guess all the APA has to do is send AMR and the judge a letter that this is what we prefer and I'm sure they'll get right to work on it. Sure, under certain circumstances AA unions could influence current management strongly, but FIRST they'd have to be courted by outside forces like DAL management that would make a lot of promises about giveing them a better deal to turn on AMR management. I could see that happening, but it's not something that AA's unions could spearhead from the front.

Now back to reality (at least until DAL's or U's management DOES come a knockin' on AA's unions doors)........

A negotiation period will take place and either an agreement will occur or not. If it occurs, then we'll see if the pilot group bites (or is even allowed to bite by their own union). If not, AMR goes to the judge to implement what it wants. The judge agrees on some, all or none of their requests. If bad enough, then attrition will be a byproduct of that as other seek careers elsewhere. The principle creditors then decide if a merger, acquisition or fragmentation or current managments stand-alone plan is the best "business plan" going forward. Others will attempt to convince them their plan of X, Y and Z is better.

Ulitimately one succeeds as the business plan upon chapter 11 exit.

BTW, many are indeed getting their logbooks and resume's together and I know of several who already have interviews scheduled both inside and outside the industry. AA won't be hurting though. As I said before, any regional with shiny new 70-seaters has all kinds of kids jumping over each other now to fly an RJ for peanuts. Think of what flying a new 737 or A319 would be like ?

AMR's proposal had a new-hire rate at $40/hour and second year at $50/hour for Airbus aircraft. 12 years later they could be making $130/hour as captains. AA would have 10,000 RJ pilots literally tripping each other at the front door of Amon Carter to get in first within 10 days of announcing a hiring window. US Airways has their most junior pilots with 20+ years at the carrier in their 50's flying for less then I made at Eagle when I left and no one is pulling the ejection handle there now.

Face it guys. This profession is dead as dog****** because it was systematically given away for the last 15 years and thousands of new suckers are out there waiting to perpetuate the conga line to further mediocrity. Management won and we lost. At least the union big cheeses became millionaires (and are still getting richer by the day with no end in sight yet). The pilots of AA were not willing to take scraps willingly and told AMR that you'd have to go to BK to get that. They did (actually, they planned to all along fooling everyone, so that "proposal" really was meaningless).

Let's just face the fact, we're good at flying planes, but flat out faliures as businessmen and stewards of a profession. If you want to charge out the door solo like Bluto and live in denial, knock yourself out. If you do that, guys like the stork will run right past you in the other direction to claim your spot on the Delta house couch.

Sad, but true.