AMR to APA term sheet proposal
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
They are taking us down one at a time! This has to stop, we all need to make a stand or no job in the airline industry is going to be worth anything. I wish the so called unions would get off their a$$'s and call for a national walk out. What are they going to do to all of us?
#32
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
I don't remember if the judge can or cannot impose a contract. Last time around they could, but rules may have changed. The important point to me is that you're better off with no/imposed contract as opposed to something you agree to for 6 years. With no contract, I think your ability to seek self help is a lot better than now where the NMB sides with management.
Don't know all the legal ins and outs on this, so I'd like to learn more about it.
Carl
Don't know all the legal ins and outs on this, so I'd like to learn more about it.
Carl
That being said, regardless of what occurs at this point, my perception is that Horton had one chance to make a first impression and this was it. Since 2003, these employees have arguably been subjected to being disregarded, disrespected and simply discounted to a level like no other domestic major carrier in the the U.S. by those that were supposed to inspire them. Additionally, selecting and then using as the hood ornament of the future of this carrier someone who has previously referred to pilots as "bricks in their backpack" to deliver this first impression has permanantly and irrepairably stained this carriers employees to a new level that I simply can't see the required trust and respect from the surviving front line employees (and certainly the pilots) for this carrier ever again. At least until the vast majority have quit or retired. Everyone expected significant sacrifices, but at least from the pilots situation, this was beyond comprehension. AA is setting itself up to become a pilot training mill specializing in 737 and Airbus type-ratings with a busy revolving door, with people more interested in what's down the road somewhere else, then what's in front of them while at AA.
The attempt to reinvent American Airlines is now virtually doomed IMO (at least to anything with a truly competitive product), regardless of new wrapping like a paint scheme changes or new uniforms, etc. The core of any great company are its people and the damage done over the last 10 years was extreme, but still salvagable...................until yesterday, when AMR drove a stake through their hearts once and for all. I think in retrospect, this will be looked upon as the final colassal error that altered American Airlines destiny. I previously stated my opinion that "American Airlines" was too iconic to die. The name may or may not die, but the spirit already has. It looks like there may be little concern of that as well, as apparently the future AA may be perfectly happy providing 50% of its domestic product with RJ's and outsourced to sub-contractors.
The real tragedy is not the obscene proposals that were made yesterday. The real tragedy is what it clearly shows about what is still driving AA forward into the future.............the same mindset and philosophy that drove it into the ground over the last decade.
THAT is the tragedy and it's undeniable.
Last edited by eaglefly; 02-02-2012 at 06:45 AM.
#34
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 2,750
#36
If AMR's proposal includes scope relief and the judge grants the petiton, then that's it. Game over.
Management has to jump through some hoops prior to rejection. (negotiations, exchange of financial data, etc.)
Here's the actual law:
United States Code: Title 11,1113. Rejection of collective bargaining agreements | LII / Legal Information Institute
The NWA flight attendants are the only group that has ever taken this all the way to a contract rejection. Everybody else has caved and negotiated a settlement. The NWA FA's thought they could strike after rejection. NWA management sued for an injunction to stop AFA's "Operation CHAOS". There had never been a test case on that question. The FAs lost in court.
You cannot strike after an 1113 rejection. You're basically back at square one, with the NMB controlling any "self-help".
Here's the actual court decision in that case:
483 F.3d 160: In Re Northwest Airlines Corporation, Debtor,northwest Airlines Corporation, and All Other Plaintiffs, Plaintiff-appellee v. Association of Flight Attendants-cwa, Afl-cio, and All Other Defendants, Defendant-appellant,[483 F.3d 161]air
If you're not into judge-speak and legalese, here's a little shorter and easier to read summary of the situation:
http://www.whitecase.com/files/Publi...arofalo_v1.pdf
Last edited by Check Essential; 02-02-2012 at 07:44 AM.
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 945
Reader's Digest version of the overall process, and how AMR intends to bend over its employees:
http://restructuringamr.com/document...esentation.pdf
Interesting note on the last slide about new aircraft orders: "Fleet orders and certain other plans are subject to U.S. Bankruptcy Court approval."
http://restructuringamr.com/document...esentation.pdf
Interesting note on the last slide about new aircraft orders: "Fleet orders and certain other plans are subject to U.S. Bankruptcy Court approval."
#38
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
That is incorrect. The judge can do pretty much whatever he wants.
If AMR's proposal includes scope relief and the judge grants the petiton, then that's it. Game over.
Management has to jump through some hoops prior to rejection. (negotiations, exchange of financial data, etc.)
Here's the actual law:
United States Code: Title 11,1113. Rejection of collective bargaining agreements | LII / Legal Information Institute
The NWA flight attendants are the only group that has ever taken this all the way to a contract rejection. Everybody else has caved and negotiated a settlement. The NWA FA's thought they could strike after rejection. NWA management sued for an injunction to stop AFA's "Operation CHAOS". There had never been a test case on that question. The FAs lost in court.
You cannot strike after an 1113 rejection. You're basically back at square one, with the NMB controlling any "self-help".
Here's the actual court decision in that case:
483 F.3d 160: In Re Northwest Airlines Corporation, Debtor,northwest Airlines Corporation, and All Other Plaintiffs, Plaintiff-appellee v. Association of Flight Attendants-cwa, Afl-cio, and All Other Defendants, Defendant-appellant,[483 F.3d 161]air
If you're not into judge-speak and legalese, here's a little shorter and easier to read summary of the situation:
http://www.whitecase.com/files/Publi...arofalo_v1.pdf
If AMR's proposal includes scope relief and the judge grants the petiton, then that's it. Game over.
Management has to jump through some hoops prior to rejection. (negotiations, exchange of financial data, etc.)
Here's the actual law:
United States Code: Title 11,1113. Rejection of collective bargaining agreements | LII / Legal Information Institute
The NWA flight attendants are the only group that has ever taken this all the way to a contract rejection. Everybody else has caved and negotiated a settlement. The NWA FA's thought they could strike after rejection. NWA management sued for an injunction to stop AFA's "Operation CHAOS". There had never been a test case on that question. The FAs lost in court.
You cannot strike after an 1113 rejection. You're basically back at square one, with the NMB controlling any "self-help".
Here's the actual court decision in that case:
483 F.3d 160: In Re Northwest Airlines Corporation, Debtor,northwest Airlines Corporation, and All Other Plaintiffs, Plaintiff-appellee v. Association of Flight Attendants-cwa, Afl-cio, and All Other Defendants, Defendant-appellant,[483 F.3d 161]air
If you're not into judge-speak and legalese, here's a little shorter and easier to read summary of the situation:
http://www.whitecase.com/files/Publi...arofalo_v1.pdf
There are a many cases of 1113(c) processes where management went after scope and the judge rejected the contract. However, in every single case the judge removed the scope relief section. This happened at my carrier Mesaba, the judge removed the scope relief section of our imposed contract. We were also barred from striking.
Any pilot who tells you scope is on the table is likely from an ALPA carrier. As best I can tell this lie originates from ALPA during the TWA/AMR merger several years ago. ALPA tried to sell out the TWA pilots by lying to them that a bankruptcy judge could abrogate their scope section and they should accept the APA agreement. ALPA was found guilty of doing this, this past summer.
#39
The attempt to reinvent American Airlines is now virtually doomed IMO (at least to anything with a truly competitive product), regardless of new wrapping like a paint scheme changes or new uniforms, etc. The core of any great company are its people and the damage done over the last 10 years was extreme, but still salvagable...................until yesterday, when AMR drove a stake through their hearts once and for all. I think in retrospect, this will be looked upon as the final colassal error that altered American Airlines destiny. I previously stated my opinion that "American Airlines" was too iconic to die. The name may or may not die, but the spirit already has. It looks like there may be little concern of that as well, as apparently the future AA may be perfectly happy providing 50% of its domestic product with RJ's and outsourced to sub-contractors.
The real tragedy is not the obscene proposals that were made yesterday. The real tragedy is what it clearly shows about what is still driving AA forward into the future.............the same mindset and philosophy that drove it into the ground over the last decade.
THAT is the tragedy and it's undeniable.
The real tragedy is not the obscene proposals that were made yesterday. The real tragedy is what it clearly shows about what is still driving AA forward into the future.............the same mindset and philosophy that drove it into the ground over the last decade.
THAT is the tragedy and it's undeniable.
Personally, I am worried. I used to be in the "AA is too big to die" club, but as I see what types of decisions are being made and how the workers continue to be shafted, I don't know anymore.
Good Luck
#40
Seriously that whole thing is awful.
NO minimum guarantee for a line holder?? Huh?
I hope you all fight this and especially hope you can work with the PBGC to not have your pensions dumped. At the very least there should be no reason why the pensions can't be "frozen" at current levels for the employees, especially the pilots who would take the biggest hit if they were terminated. Other airlines managed to freeze what they had without having them dumped. Of course many airlines also separated their pilot pensions from the other employees and froze or terminated only those. I'm cheering for the PBGC and the APA when it comes to your pensions. Pilots always seem to be the ones asked to give up the most.
NO minimum guarantee for a line holder?? Huh?
I hope you all fight this and especially hope you can work with the PBGC to not have your pensions dumped. At the very least there should be no reason why the pensions can't be "frozen" at current levels for the employees, especially the pilots who would take the biggest hit if they were terminated. Other airlines managed to freeze what they had without having them dumped. Of course many airlines also separated their pilot pensions from the other employees and froze or terminated only those. I'm cheering for the PBGC and the APA when it comes to your pensions. Pilots always seem to be the ones asked to give up the most.
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