Originally Posted by EWRflyr

Seriously that whole thing is awful.

NO minimum guarantee for a line holder?? Huh?

I hope you all fight this and especially hope you can work with the PBGC to not have your pensions dumped. At the very least there should be no reason why the pensions can't be "frozen" at current levels for the employees, especially the pilots who would take the biggest hit if they were terminated. Other airlines managed to freeze what they had without having them dumped. Of course many airlines also separated their pilot pensions from the other employees and froze or terminated only those. I'm cheering for the PBGC and the APA when it comes to your pensions. Pilots always seem to be the ones asked to give up the most.

Originally Posted by Mesabah

This is wrong, he can not do whatever he wants. Scope relief is not on the table as it is against the law for a judge or management to interfere with workers right to organize. This is a fact of United States labor law.

There are a many cases of 1113(c) processes where management went after scope and the judge rejected the contract. However, in every single case the judge removed the scope relief section. This happened at my carrier Mesaba, the judge removed the scope relief section of our imposed contract. We were also barred from striking.

Any pilot who tells you scope is on the table is likely from an ALPA carrier. As best I can tell this lie originates from ALPA during the TWA/AMR merger several years ago. ALPA tried to sell out the TWA pilots by lying to them that a bankruptcy judge could abrogate their scope section and they should accept the APA agreement. ALPA was found guilty of doing this, this past summer.

Originally Posted by Mesabah

He can impose a contract

Originally Posted by eaglefly

Check out www.restructuringamr.com. Under the section termed, "The Process", it has a sub-section that describes what occurs moving forward during 1113.

That being said, regardless of what occurs at this point, my perception is that Horton had one chance to make a first impression and this was it. Since 2003, these employees have arguably been subjected to being disregarded, disrespected and simply discounted to a level like no other domestic major carrier in the the U.S. by those that were supposed to inspire them. Additionally, selecting and then using as the hood ornament of the future of this carrier someone who has previously referred to pilots as "bricks in their backpack" to deliver this first impression has permanantly and irrepairably stained this carriers employees to a new level that I simply can't see the required trust and respect from the surviving front line employees (and certainly the pilots) for this carrier ever again. At least until the vast majority have quit or retired. Everyone expected significant sacrifices, but at least from the pilots situation, this was beyond comprehension. AA is setting itself up to become a pilot training mill specializing in 737 and Airbus type-ratings with a busy revolving door, with people more interested in what's down the road somewhere else, then what's in front of them while at AA.

The attempt to reinvent American Airlines is now virtually doomed IMO (at least to anything with a truly competitive product), regardless of new wrapping like a paint scheme changes or new uniforms, etc. The core of any great company are its people and the damage done over the last 10 years was extreme, but still salvagable...................until yesterday, when AMR drove a stake through their hearts once and for all. I think in retrospect, this will be looked upon as the final colassal error that altered American Airlines destiny. I previously stated my opinion that "American Airlines" was too iconic to die. The name may or may not die, but the spirit already has. It looks like there may be little concern of that as well, as apparently the future AA may be perfectly happy providing 50% of its domestic product with RJ's and outsourced to sub-contractors.

The real tragedy is not the obscene proposals that were made yesterday. The real tragedy is what it clearly shows about what is still driving AA forward into the future.............the same mindset and philosophy that drove it into the ground over the last decade.

THAT is the tragedy and it's undeniable.

Originally Posted by PinnacleFO

what is a pay band? How low would the 88-117 seat pay be and how low would the airbus pay be?

Originally Posted by PinnacleFO

what is a pay band? How low would the 88-117 seat pay be and how low would the airbus pay be?

Originally Posted by Killer51883

As I interpret this it would be simmilar to how continental pays pilots wide body, long narrow body etc. The pay is pretty dismall and makes airways pay look good. the pay rates for captain in a 88-117 seat aircraft (E-190) based off of current MD-80 rates would be $75-$110. the captain of a 319/737-700 would be maxing (based off of current FO 767/777 rates) $83-$139. since these are Captain rates I wonder what the FO rates would be.

The Scope clause of having the greater number of 255- or 50% mainline fleet in regional jets is interesting. At the current fleet size you would have 313 88 seat or smaller aircraft. Also the weight limit of 114,500 lb max take off weight is the E190's max take off weight.

If I may offer an opinion to this mess to the AA pilots. Please remember that any concession you guys give up will have consequences. Scope has the biggest consequence of all. If you keep a sizeable pay check and night over rides but have to give up scope, you wont have jobs to collect that pay check and over ride with. Jobs are more important than pay rates, PBS, or anything else on that list. Good luck guys.