The Chow

T,

My understanding is the PBGC was quick to tell AMR that they will not be able to just dump the pensions onto the taxpayers. I haven't looked it up myself but I was told that the % per ticket to fund AMR's frozen pension is less before bancruptcy than other carriers after bankruptcy.

Why would senior pilots lose anything if they leave? As long as they give proper notice they shouldn't lose anything correct? Or am completely bass ackwards?

TC

The Chow

It seems many of the experts the APA used did not earn their pay.

Under the medical benefits section the judge states that the APA expert received his cost savings figures from a software program. He didn't know how many people the software utilized or any other assumptions the software had programmed.

Page 62 of the judgement

TC

eaglefly

To be honest, it is you that sounds like the defensive little child. If you want to put out your OPINION on this issue, fine, but expect it to questioned by those directly involved in the situation. Now as far as your assertions above, YOU MISS THE REAL POINT ENTIRELY (but that's understandable considering you're in the stadium parking lot peeking through the fence instead of not only not in the stands, but not on the playing field) .

In regards to the TA scope provisions, THAT agreement allows presently approximately 375 RJ's and could include the E-190 as the term "comparable aircraft" is a contractually meaningless definition. In fact, a large percentage of the TA DID NOT EVEN HAVE FINAL CONTRACT LANGUAGE AT THE TIME OF VOTE DEADLINE, so in effect, much of the TA MEANT NOTHING (at least nothing defendable). Additionally, the codesharing provisions allow for other carriers to fly another 300 or so aircraft of ANY SIZE that would replace AA domestic flying. At that point the game is over anyway for most of the AA pilot group and it matters little whether its 79 or 88 seats as WITH the TA, AMR can place perhaps 700 aircraft into future service ranging from small RJ/turboprops, up to ANY size aircraft flying domestically. The TA was giving up virtually everything anyway and destroying any possible leverage for a decade (or more), so that coupled with the other provisions that put AA pilots SQUARELY at the bottom of the coming playing field in compensation and in fact, by a significant margin, made the decesion clear for most pilots. There was simply nothing to work with in the TA.

Your argument, while it MAY appear to have merit as TECHNICALLY the TA was better then the 1113, in reality it does NOT have merit as REALISTICALLY, the TA ensures it's all over for most AA pilots. BTW, considering the age of this pilot group, this TA would have been the LAST contract for the majority of pilots here and basically they'd be finishing their careers in the worst situation possible. As it stands now, there still is a potential future to be negotiated at some point that will likely provide much better then this garbage, sandbag TA. I must say I find it odd you're so emotionally aggressive regarding another pilot group that didn't see things the way you do and you seem to be taking it personally. I'm sorry most aren't buying your erronous advice. This leads me to suspicions you either have another motive (self-interest) or perhaps you are another poser pretending to be a pilot.

Just why ARE you so emotional about the AA pilots situation ?

eaglefly

AMR wanted that outcome for the pesnions. Initially, AMR stated the intention to terminate, but then the PBGC put leins on many South American assets (that are not protected in BK) and that leverage forced them to retreat to a freeze. The PBGC is something like 40-50 billion under water as it is and adding another 8 billion from AMR is a back-breaker, so Gothy did what he had to do.

"Leverage".........what a concept, eh ?

At any rate, once this BK is over and the PBGC doesn't have the ability to put leins on assets (loss of leverage) or have judges to influence, I'd expect AMR to terminate in the future as it saves money. That would fit perfectly with their M.O., IMO. BTW, when that happens, guess whose paychecks will likely be the place to find $$$ to make that up for the PBGC ?

Yep, the taxpayers (look for more $$$ skimmed from your paychecks in the future).

eaglefly

There's still several pathways for the ultimate resolution of this situation and really none of us can predict what pathway will result. Horton has claimed that a "merger decision" will be forthcoming within weeks which could be their rejection of anything while in BK, or IMO a deal with Parker for U or possibly a Jet Blue hook-up (maybe both ! ). I think Horton is feeling greater pressure from the creditors to not tip over the apple cart in this process if one of his motivations is maximum payout for himself (which IMO IS one of his motivations). AMR is HARD UP to abrogate to at least 1113 provisions and there may be many reasons for this;


- You'll note that through all of this AMR has YET to place a single RJ replacement/expenasion order, which indicates risk-averse financiers are reluctant to commit to sitting on a volcano at this time, under these circumstances. Considering aircraft delivery times and ramp-up hiring/training, you'd think they would have moved already if they could and they are antsy to begin their POR which hasn't happened yet.

- Perhaps they feel that the best deal to save face and demonstrate to all that THEY are in control of their labor (especially their pilots) is to return to the table as the one with perceived leverage with AA pilots operating under "uncertainty and pain" with no contract ?

- One pathway out is an agreement between Horton, Parker, the creditors and the judge for a U merger within BK, but that would guarantee a minimum payout (stock and bonuses, etc.) upon exit for Horton and his team along with a transition period that lets Horton manage the situation until some point in the future when Parker takes over. If they can technically proclaim a merger while still in BK, then the CLA that the APA inked with Parker becomes the offical CBA for AA pilots which would defuse the AA pilot contract situation until the reorganization is complete and BK is exited. That CLA has terms that are WELL below those that would be at Delta or United in the future and thus beancounters and cash-dispensers alike would be satisfied with that outcome and the ball could begin rolling for all concerned.

- Perhaps Horton will announce a hook-up with Jet Blue and then use SLI issues as leverage and a fear-stick against AA pilots to capitulate to a substandard CBA ?

* Yes, I know JB management has made certain statements of their lack of interest in hook-ups, but that would be exactly what should be said if there was something in the works as opposed to the opposite, so statements like these are meaningless. Isn't it odd how AA has relinquished the Carribean, Boston and to a lessor degree JFK to JB so easily ?

Why would they do that ?



At any rate, I think AMR is now telling the creditors that the pilot labor end-game is near and to be patient just a bit longer. Likely, on Sept. 4, it seems Lane will have the boxes checked to grant AMR's abrogation request and then after that, I expect them to sit down with the APA and make a move.

What move, is the $64,000 question. As far as AA flying off the rails in the interim, tI agree that it depends on what level they begin a TRUE assault on the pilots (up to now, it's been abstract and not reality). If pilots are now forced to work days off, reassigned with impunity, etc., and watching their paychecks collapse in the process (along with NO pension contributions) and even perhaps token terminations, then many pilots will simply choose fight or flight as their lives will simply become unmanageable. Personally, I can't comprehend a management that would create such a situation and have those affected out there operating aircraft, but at any rate, EITHER of those possibilities are bad for all parties and I think flight will be the most likely, thus my prediction of increasing and uncontrollable attrition. It won't be a labor statement, simply (mostly) older men in their 50's and even 60's simply not able to exist like that and rationalizing other options with their lives. 777's and 737's may quite quickly have to be parked as any hiring/training would take 3-4 months per pilot to replace pilots who gave 0-2 weeks notice of retirement/resignation. You can see how that could get out-of-hand quickly. As it stands now, AA is very short in most statuses, begging for pilots to fly premium on days off. The Holiday season will be approaching and that would be a bad time to lose 3-500 pilots on short-notice. A situation like that may be looked upon as evidence of the apple cart indeed beginning its roll.

For all concerned, it is hoped that whatever moves and plays are imminent over the next weeks and months that stability be maintained so as to maximize a viable path out of this mess. This BK is now at the point where things HAVE TO BEGIN TO HAPPEN. Personally, I give it 50/50. No copout there, just no idea which way this mess (and it IS a mess) will go.

eaglefly

This whole process is a sham and completely one-sided agianst labor. It is theoretically SUPPOSED to "ensure all are treated fairly", but clearly that isn't the reality. The legal stage is deliberatley set up to provide all the leverage to crush workers in this process, it simply becoming a game of a small percentage of players maximizing personal wealth by the TRANSFER OF WEALTH from labor to them. You'll note they declared bankruptcy with almost 5 billion in cash (1 billion of that they legally withheld from pension funding during the previous years) and so far in 9 months have added another billion after paying exhorbitant fees to multiple advisors.

You'll also note during this same 9 month period they have yet to institute a single, solitary labor cut and still they've made a billion in 9 months. You'd have to be a certifed idiot to not see what's really happening here. AA pilots see it and they are at least resisting it with every ability they have and not capitualting to every fable and story read to them designed to seize their money (past, present and future) as easily as possible like alfaromeo is advocating.

GW258

He also had it all figured out for the US Airways and United pilots too.

It is beyond arrogance but not in his mind.

Mesabah

He is afraid that the concessions that the AA pilots might be forced to take will under cut Delta and weaken his position in the future. Which is quite ironic, really.

eaglefly

If that's the case, I think he's looking at this situation backwards. The TA provisions would be more devistating over a ten-year or longer period to the interests of United or Delta pilots interests, whereas the "uncertainty and pain" of the 1113 is certain to have a much shorter shelf life.

forgot to bid

Maybe it's like we stumbled on to the apc version of one of those carnival booths that guess your age and stuff? It's just a little different...