I think certain DL pilots are a bit frightened of another pilot group actually standing up for themselves and being willing to risk everything to do the right thing - because it puts the DL pilot group in the worst possible light. 62% in favor of more jumbo RJs, more work rule givebacks, and COL raises while the company rakes in record profits? Yeah, I'd be on the bankrupt airline's pilot board heckling them, too.

 

- Due to differences in pension structure and the way our claim was set up by our negotiators and advisers, Delta's claim was much, much different than our claim would have been. In other words, we would have never received nearly as much money as the DAL pilots received. Our union reps and advisers stressed this.

- Our claim was never monetized, and our council and advisers refused to monetized it.

- There were FOUR (yes, count them FOUR) ways listed (in nebulous legalese) that our 13.5% claim could have been diluted, including management bonuses. We did not even know what our 13.5% would have amounted to after the dust settled.

- Our advisers would have netted 10% of the 13.5% claim as a bonus. There was an obvious conflict of interest in someone pushing a yes vote in order to enrich themselves.

- The claim was supposedly being used to push "influence" for a merger with the UCC, yet when combining all of the votes of labor on the UCC, we still fell well short of getting the votes needed to pass any motion. Furthermore, we were in effect asking the other non-union members of the UCC to take LESS MONEY to pass our scheme with Doug Parker. Yeah....I'm sure that was realistic.



This only one bullet point of why the original post was so absurd. The decision was not made on "emotion". It was made upon weeks of risk analysis and carefully analyzing what was being offered vs. alternatives available. Obviously the poster did not have a copy of the offer, or analyze the offer very well, as he would have seen that the terms were far more onerous than offers made to other bankrupt carriers. (i.e. how many other carries had a b-scale pay rate for A-319s?) The posted obviously did not see or care that important parts of the LBFO had either NO language in important areas or completely confusing language allowing the provisions to end up being in effect a "fill in the blank" contract for management.

The original poster has NO IDEA where we will end up or what we will end up having for a contract, as no other pilot group has had their contract abrogated. The original posted has an abysmal lack of knowledge of the intricacies of all the moving parts, including the company's POR plans, or current behind the scenes negotiating between the UCC and the APA.

Coming on here with almost zero facts and completely clueless on important events happening and telling the group what to do is not "advice", it is arrogance.

 

Jungle, unfortunately you couldn't be more wrong in case, so I'll happily enlighten you.

There are only three things that DAL pilots are scared of:
1.) Their own shadows
2.) Forgetting their hats
3.) Carnies (You know? Circus Folk...Small Hands)

 

To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary.

I've wondered where this tarted and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my father.

 

When did this become a SWA thread?

HA HA.

Informative? No.
Funny? No.
Believable? Nope.
Flamebait? Yes... but, eh, not that good as far as flamebait goes.

I'll show you some flamebait better than you could ever do it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by beaneater
Alfa, glad someone has the guts to stand up and say this. well said.

There ya go. Flamebait.

 

Wow.........this is sooooo weird !

Very late one afternoon a couple of months ago we were at the ATL airport and as we walked out to grab the hotel shuttle we noticed the meat wagon parked in front, flashing lights and all. Walked up and asked a guy what had happened and he said a Delta pilot had looked at the wall, screamed "CLOWN !!!" and just flopped over.

His hat was nowhere to be found.

 

Thanks, glad it's not. Sorry about the jab. A cactus sqeezins induced reaction to the arrogance. Back to AA.

 

I was thinking the same thing. Actually almost bit.
Well played Bean....Well played.


On a lighter note, be sure to catch Alfa's new show on the National Geographic Channel.



2015 is just around the corner. Might as well get ready now

 

Yes it is true that you don't know what the claim will be. I heard the same arguments when we negotiated our claim in bankruptcy. It could be worth zero it could be worth more than the Delta pilots got. Certainly if you let your contract get rejected, it will be zero, you can bank on that.

I have been deeply involved in several contract negotiations, I read both term sheets multiple times so I know what you were facing. I believe I referred to it as a "crappy contract" and a worse one. You can stop the bleating over how bad it is. My pension was terminated, we took a 14% pay cut, and more in bankruptcy. Your offer was not out of the range of any other bankruptcy deal. At Delta, we are now on our second post bankruptcy contract and we exited bankruptcy in April 2007.

If the APA is smart they will be talking to management and the UCC. Given the judges comments, there is very little incentive for either of those parties to change the economics of the deal to any extent. You can rearrange the deck chairs but the total nut will probably not change.

I note you take deep offense to my opinions and call it arrogance to offer advice, but say nothing when a Compass RJ driver does the same thing. I at least have over 20 years in the industry and have extensive negotiating experience along with being centrally involved in our own bankruptcy. But I am sure that the 25 year old RJ driver has much more experience to offer. Maybe you only take offense when someone disagrees with you.

My point is this. Your airline will not be the same 18 months from now as it is now. During these big changes, you want to have a contract, you want to have merger protections, you want to have fragmentation protections. Look around at previous airlines and see what is possible in bankruptcy. If you get caught in some major transaction with no contractual protections you will look back on those A-319 rates and wish you had signed up for those. Having been through bankruptcy I understand your anger and frustration. In my opinion, you will only magnify the pain if you allow your contract to be rejected. Your lawyers, your officers, your negotiators, your BOD all recognized that fact when they approved this TA, as stinky as it was. It is too late to yell "Halt" after the steam roller has run over you. So if it is arrogance to try to warn your fellow pilots not to shoot themselves in the foot, head, heart, and groin then I plead arrogance.

As for the rest of you on this thread. Grow up. I am sure you must think that your grade school taunts mean something. They show that you are immature people with little imagination and nothing of substance to add to the debate.

 

alfaromeo:

"As for the rest of you on this thread. Grow up. I am sure you must think that your grade school taunts mean something. They show that you are immature people with little imagination and nothing of substance to add to the debate."


I've learned that people who are long in the mouth/post are short on substance.

Do you really believe any of us consider you to be of so much wisdom for the rest of us? You are the one that needs to grow up. You are making a fool of yourself.