Views on the pilot slowdown from FF customer
10-01-2012, 02:37 PM
#11
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Posts: 13
Originally Posted by WHACKMASTER
Again, I think you fail to realize how much the work group in question has been schit on for years and what it does to one's moral and thinking. Inside all of us professional pilots, a little voice is screaming, "That's it boys, stick it to them!" because of how much our proud profession has been raped for decades now.
And yes, some creeps in management will in fact make out like bandits. They always will. But to think that would NOT happen with different management? That's what's delusional in this action.
Clearly AA management has failed to build any team spirit. But this action probably just simply ensures the whole airline goes down in flames. If so - good job pilots. Now you are going to make me fly US Air instead... Gosh darn it!
10-01-2012, 02:38 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 853
Originally Posted by AA3mFreqFl
Snide remark of the day - eh? No, I just want ONE airline that we can use coast-to-cost that actually treats its customers well.
You (or the pilots) should want the same thing. Why wouldn't you want to be that airline for customers, leading to more revenue over time?
Again my point is simply that thinking US Air would give you any benefit seems delusional.
I have been part of a lot of M&A activity in my field (the IT industry), and any M&A NEVER works out for the party being acquired or 'merged-in.'
Only the 'in charge' party actually gets any benefit, and often the merger really doesn't work out well for the acquirer for several years. The pilots are delusional if you think your situation would be any different.
You (or the pilots) should want the same thing. Why wouldn't you want to be that airline for customers, leading to more revenue over time?
Again my point is simply that thinking US Air would give you any benefit seems delusional.
I have been part of a lot of M&A activity in my field (the IT industry), and any M&A NEVER works out for the party being acquired or 'merged-in.'
Only the 'in charge' party actually gets any benefit, and often the merger really doesn't work out well for the acquirer for several years. The pilots are delusional if you think your situation would be any different.
10-01-2012, 02:40 PM
#14
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Joined APC: Sep 2011
Posts: 99
I am going to simply re-post my "customer perspective" from a different thread here. I think it is important for pilots at AA not to dismiss the comments made above by AA3mFreqFl - for there are many with this perspective. However, like everything, not ALL dedicated frequent flyers or business travelers, or people in general, share the perspective. I for one think there are lessons for all, but especially management here (hence my message back to AA), and I hope for the sake of all, there is actually some effort to learn and improve here.
My post from a week ago or so:
FYI - for those interested, I have flown many many miles on numerous airlines, I am not a pilot, and I have always been interested in the aviation industry.
That being said, I received the same email from AA a couple of days ago, and instantly recognized the BS of putting it on an employee group that is critical for safety and operational excellence. So, I sent the following email to AA Advantage Customer Service:
I have been a significant business traveler for more than 20 years, and have nearly 4 million miles on American over the years. Similar on United, and Delta, and Northwest prior to their merger with Delta.
I hated traveling United for years because their employees were just fed up, leading up to and through their bankruptcy. Congratulations, you are now in that category.
As a Platinum for life member on Advantage program, I received the email from Suzanne L. Rubin, President for AAdvantage® Loyalty Program, and wish to share my perspective.
I also have years of dealing with mission critical professionals that are proud of their work. I am dismayed by the treatment AA has given their Flight Attendents, Mechanics, and frontline CS personnel, but especially Pilots, leading up to and in this Bankruptcy.
Do not believe you can send an email and have all your customers believe that the recent operational problem stems from "maintenance write-ups by our pilots, many right at the time of departure. Our maintenance teams are responding appropriately to such reports, which may cause interruptions in our schedules". Many of us know better, and I certainly hope that AA does not believe that! The root cause is the treatment AA has given it's Pilots, and other critical employees, for years, but especially during this bankruptcy.
Fair treatment and honest negotiating goes a long way to happy satisfied employees - the only way to have happy and satisfied customers.
So, for what it is worth, there are customers flying with you that both recognize and support your importance to AA and to successful business travel. Keep up the efforts to fight against a system that is stacked against you, but that CAN NOT succeed without you. Stay united!
My post from a week ago or so:
FYI - for those interested, I have flown many many miles on numerous airlines, I am not a pilot, and I have always been interested in the aviation industry.
That being said, I received the same email from AA a couple of days ago, and instantly recognized the BS of putting it on an employee group that is critical for safety and operational excellence. So, I sent the following email to AA Advantage Customer Service:
I have been a significant business traveler for more than 20 years, and have nearly 4 million miles on American over the years. Similar on United, and Delta, and Northwest prior to their merger with Delta.
I hated traveling United for years because their employees were just fed up, leading up to and through their bankruptcy. Congratulations, you are now in that category.
As a Platinum for life member on Advantage program, I received the email from Suzanne L. Rubin, President for AAdvantage® Loyalty Program, and wish to share my perspective.
I also have years of dealing with mission critical professionals that are proud of their work. I am dismayed by the treatment AA has given their Flight Attendents, Mechanics, and frontline CS personnel, but especially Pilots, leading up to and in this Bankruptcy.
Do not believe you can send an email and have all your customers believe that the recent operational problem stems from "maintenance write-ups by our pilots, many right at the time of departure. Our maintenance teams are responding appropriately to such reports, which may cause interruptions in our schedules". Many of us know better, and I certainly hope that AA does not believe that! The root cause is the treatment AA has given it's Pilots, and other critical employees, for years, but especially during this bankruptcy.
Fair treatment and honest negotiating goes a long way to happy satisfied employees - the only way to have happy and satisfied customers.
So, for what it is worth, there are customers flying with you that both recognize and support your importance to AA and to successful business travel. Keep up the efforts to fight against a system that is stacked against you, but that CAN NOT succeed without you. Stay united!
10-01-2012, 02:44 PM
#15
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Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by avia8orguy
Maybe you don't see the point BECAUSE you live in your fancy beach house in LA. Are you sure you are not in management, because seems like you would do well there. You are phony and absolutely stoops!!!
Either the customer loses. Or all the other employees at AA loses. Even if the pilots come out ahead in the short-term, what on earth makes you think that the first pilot contract would in fact be honored on extension?
Again, I feel truly sorry for the people working at AA. As an AA customer I truly hope you guys survive. And as a US Air customer if a merger happens, I hope they fire the US Air frequent flyer management team and brings in the AA one. Of course that won't happen.
Good luck all of you.
10-01-2012, 02:46 PM
#16
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Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
I too will probably make Exec Plat this year and would like to see AA make it as a stand alone. The point you are missing AA3m is if management has its way you wont be flying on AA flights you will be flying on code shares with alaska, jet blue, or the cheapest RJ operator available. In addition to keeping some benefits the AA Pilots are fighting to keep AA passengers on AA planes with AA flight crews.
10-01-2012, 02:48 PM
#17
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Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by AA3mFreqFl
Ok - so - first of all, other than working toward a private pilot cert, I am clearly NOT a commercial pilot. So hopefully this thread won't get killed by the admins, since I think it's a pretty important one.
I am however, a huge AA customer. I have flown 2mm miles on American (or rather a combination of OneWorld AA, BA, CX, JL and oddly enough Jet (9W) when they were sort of code-shared) and 1mm miles on non-OW and non-AA flights for 3mm in total. The VAST majority of flights are BIS (butt-in-seat) miles on American metal. I was Executive Platinum on AA for 6 years in a row and nowadays I am 'just' a Platinum, though it looks like I will be back at ExecPlat level this year (presuming the pilots work-slow-down doesn't screw things up).
My take on the current action by pilots is that it reminds me of a suicide bombing run, since I don't see any way the pilots themselves will come out ahead, and all you are doing is taking down the whole airline and all its other union groups in your suicide mission.
Sure you may blast current management out of the sky, but in return at best pilots, flight attendants and mechanics would get badly treated at US Airways before getting killed off the seniority list at an airline which itself is likely to go out of business for being completely inept (US Airways that is).
The reason is pretty simple; most customers (I now speak for myself, the people in our office etc. - ie people who are all AA customers that I interact with daily) absolutely HATE US Airways.
Some of the strangest and most useless hub locations (Charlotte? Philadelphia?), some of the WORST treatment of frequent fliers of ANY program, and some of the harshest redemption rules, and a horrible alliance choice (STAR alliance - which really has terribly badly integrated systems, and other than lounge access, gives you NO EQM on any counter-party airline), and generally a perceived disdain for the customer. Something AA actually doesn't have (including something as basic as AA having decent business class catering...)
American really has only one thing going for it; it's frequent flier program, and consequently us - its loyal frequent fliers.
So while every working stiff in the country deserves a better deal from their employer (we ALL deserve that), I think the pilots are delusional to think that any new management team in the era of high oil prices would ACTUALLY perform any better? You think trading one group of suits for another group of suits will buy you anything in the long term?
Now what might you lose in such a trade? The US Air team has never had any success running a complex international business, they have a terrible relationship with their customers and it's only timing and the fact they operated a very simple business (compared to American) that kept them afloat during the oil-crunch.
So while you pilots can continue the 'I am reporting the broken ashtray on the toilet door on my 752 and requesting maintenance' efforts, in the end the LAST thing you should want is to be run by the management team of the most customer-hostile airline in the industry.
More importantly - the weaker AA gets, the LESS leverage it has if it ever were to actually merge with US Air. Make AA weak enough, and suddenly any 'promises' from US Air of pilot seniority goes out the window. And you are hitching your wagon to a group of execs that are despised by the most important group of all... us the consumer.
I for one TRULY hope AA pulls through as a stand-alone entity, that the pilots gets some final concession (just pick one thing), and AA continues on its merry path with a revamped cost structure, and that AA keeps its fundamentally customer-friendly approach to its best and most frequent customers. So I truly hope that the pilot's suicide run gets thwarted, and some of the pilots come to their senses, and start operating again within the reasonable limits of what the FAR requirements were meant to do...
No idea if this thread will get any views or traction, but for the love of Pete... don't throw us the customer into the arms of US Airways. Then all reasons to fly your airline disappear forever (and thousands of jobs with it).
Cheers from a (until now) happy AA-flyer, praying you stay off the 'grass is greener over there' US Airways...
I am however, a huge AA customer. I have flown 2mm miles on American (or rather a combination of OneWorld AA, BA, CX, JL and oddly enough Jet (9W) when they were sort of code-shared) and 1mm miles on non-OW and non-AA flights for 3mm in total. The VAST majority of flights are BIS (butt-in-seat) miles on American metal. I was Executive Platinum on AA for 6 years in a row and nowadays I am 'just' a Platinum, though it looks like I will be back at ExecPlat level this year (presuming the pilots work-slow-down doesn't screw things up).
My take on the current action by pilots is that it reminds me of a suicide bombing run, since I don't see any way the pilots themselves will come out ahead, and all you are doing is taking down the whole airline and all its other union groups in your suicide mission.
Sure you may blast current management out of the sky, but in return at best pilots, flight attendants and mechanics would get badly treated at US Airways before getting killed off the seniority list at an airline which itself is likely to go out of business for being completely inept (US Airways that is).
The reason is pretty simple; most customers (I now speak for myself, the people in our office etc. - ie people who are all AA customers that I interact with daily) absolutely HATE US Airways.
Some of the strangest and most useless hub locations (Charlotte? Philadelphia?), some of the WORST treatment of frequent fliers of ANY program, and some of the harshest redemption rules, and a horrible alliance choice (STAR alliance - which really has terribly badly integrated systems, and other than lounge access, gives you NO EQM on any counter-party airline), and generally a perceived disdain for the customer. Something AA actually doesn't have (including something as basic as AA having decent business class catering...)
American really has only one thing going for it; it's frequent flier program, and consequently us - its loyal frequent fliers.
So while every working stiff in the country deserves a better deal from their employer (we ALL deserve that), I think the pilots are delusional to think that any new management team in the era of high oil prices would ACTUALLY perform any better? You think trading one group of suits for another group of suits will buy you anything in the long term?
Now what might you lose in such a trade? The US Air team has never had any success running a complex international business, they have a terrible relationship with their customers and it's only timing and the fact they operated a very simple business (compared to American) that kept them afloat during the oil-crunch.
So while you pilots can continue the 'I am reporting the broken ashtray on the toilet door on my 752 and requesting maintenance' efforts, in the end the LAST thing you should want is to be run by the management team of the most customer-hostile airline in the industry.
More importantly - the weaker AA gets, the LESS leverage it has if it ever were to actually merge with US Air. Make AA weak enough, and suddenly any 'promises' from US Air of pilot seniority goes out the window. And you are hitching your wagon to a group of execs that are despised by the most important group of all... us the consumer.
I for one TRULY hope AA pulls through as a stand-alone entity, that the pilots gets some final concession (just pick one thing), and AA continues on its merry path with a revamped cost structure, and that AA keeps its fundamentally customer-friendly approach to its best and most frequent customers. So I truly hope that the pilot's suicide run gets thwarted, and some of the pilots come to their senses, and start operating again within the reasonable limits of what the FAR requirements were meant to do...
No idea if this thread will get any views or traction, but for the love of Pete... don't throw us the customer into the arms of US Airways. Then all reasons to fly your airline disappear forever (and thousands of jobs with it).
Cheers from a (until now) happy AA-flyer, praying you stay off the 'grass is greener over there' US Airways...
I'm willing to have my opinion changed, so as a preface to discussing your perceptions, perhaps you can list the accomplishments of THIS management team over the last decade while other carriers were making upgrades to their products, investing in new equipment and infrastructure and not continuing to think of their employees as "bricks in their backpack" or focus their efforts on decimating them while maximimizing their own compensation ?
The product of this industry really is one of service and investing in that product means investing in your people. In that respect, far too many of this carriers employees feel this management has been bankrupt for a decade, but it just took the last 2 weeks for it to finally show up on YOUR radar screen. BTW, since declaring bankruptcy 11 months ago, AMR has acquired another BILLION dollars in their coffers, and until today has not implemented a single solitary modification to any current labor contract. If you really want your FF value to remain viable in the future, I would suggest you and other FF's first educate yourself as to where the real problem lies and only then can you consider a solution and/or evaluate your risk going forward.
I'm not a fan of a U hook-up, but considering the alternative, I believe it's AA's only hope. IMO, the present path with the present leadership is clearly leading to disaster.
10-01-2012, 02:48 PM
#18
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Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by fullflank
AA pilots already have a contract with Usair management that goes into affect the moment a merger occurs. AA creditors gave Doug Parker a standing ovation when he presented his plan. The only one who doesnt want this is Horton as he stands to get 60m if he comes through this as stand alone. Well him and you I guess
But again, this all is just $0.02 from someone using the services a lot. Hopefully this all works out for AA's employees, not just its pilots in the short term..
10-01-2012, 02:54 PM
#19
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Posts: 13
Originally Posted by eaglefly
As a preface to discussing your perceptions, perhaps you can list the accomplishments of THIS management team over the last decade while other carriers were making upgrades to their products, investing in new equipment and infrastructure and not continuing to think of their employees as "bricks in their backpack" or focus their efforts on decimating them while maximimizing their compensation ?
Also everyone else (United etc.) had the benefit of bankruptcy to wash their assets through. I am stunned
Finally, yes, I get the anger at management. But to think that OTHER management teams would be any different, now THAT is the delusional part on the AA pilots' side.
Again, good luck to all. I just hope I continue having a decent airline choice with a good FF program. That's all.
This was a fun debate and all... now I gotta get back from my break and do some work in the non-airline industry again
Cheers,
10-01-2012, 02:57 PM
#20
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Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: In favor of good things, not in favor of bad things
Posts: 3,543
Originally Posted by AA3mFreqFl
Welcome to America year 2012. Ever since 2001 that seems to be true. Just keep in mind that the rest of us have also had a ****ty time out here in the real world. I would expect that as your profession gets 'commoditized' your real earnings drop. As it has for the rest of us. At least your job (the pilot) cannot be outsourced to India. You should be greatful.
And yes, some creeps in management will in fact make out like bandits. They always will. But to think that would NOT happen with different management? That's what's delusional in this action.
Clearly AA management has failed to build any team spirit. But this action probably just simply ensures the whole airline goes down in flames. If so - good job pilots. Now you are going to make me fly US Air instead... Gosh darn it!
And yes, some creeps in management will in fact make out like bandits. They always will. But to think that would NOT happen with different management? That's what's delusional in this action.
Clearly AA management has failed to build any team spirit. But this action probably just simply ensures the whole airline goes down in flames. If so - good job pilots. Now you are going to make me fly US Air instead... Gosh darn it!
Plus, don't think for one second our jobs cannot be outsourced to foreign pilots, or that people don't come here to take US pilot jobs. I know several non-US citizens who have come here to fly.
The piloting world is not some safe island where everything is great and secure!
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