Carl Spackler

Then why did you advocate it above? Did you misspeak? Mistype?

No. I guess they must be numbskulls too.

Carl

Carl Spackler

First, there's no such thing as a furlough number...only a seniority number. They brought a seniority number to the merger. Same as you.

Second, you're still a separate operation. The fact that the east operation is growing while yours is shrinking makes my exact point that AWA was one of the weakest and most vulnerable after 9/11. Although everybody was also weak and vulnerable.

What you're complaining about is a market/economics based decision due to the fact that Southwest has been killing you in Phoenix and Las Vegas. Southwest tried to do the same to the east operation in PHL and failed. Had the Nic been implemented, the west's competitive failures would have been almost exclusively borne by east pilots. That seems to show that Nicolau's assumptions about the two per merger groups were exactly wrong. We now have the operational evidence to prove that.

Again, all of that is due to your sides' competitive operational failure in the marketplace. I understand that it is your preference for the east pilots to have suffered for this, but it didn't happen. It didn't happen because you are still legally separate.

BTW, you've ignored a number of my posts by only responding to this one. Are you one of those folks that only responds to things you think you can refute?

Carl

cactiboss

You don't get it. It is usapa and the company that claim we are separate. If we are separate then usapa doesn't represent us do they? The nmb said we were one carrier back in 2006, now usapa and the company say we are separate. Our position is if the court finds we are separate and allows 3 separate lists then the west must represent itself and the nmb determination we were a single carrier is wrong. Btw, you do know usapa argues the west cannot represent itself, right?

Carl Spackler

And you guys obviously needed to do the same, but didn't...until after the arbitration. I understand that you want your new seniority to be based on a snapshot in time that's most advantageous to your side. I get that. It fooled Nicolau. But now we clearly see what a straw house your operation was. Had the Nic been implemented, you would have pulled off a legal maneuver of epic proportion.

If that happened because the east couldn't get financing anywhere else (as opposed to Parker wanting to do it for better interest rates or other reason), then you'd have a point in your favor. But I don't know why that was done.

I don't know about dishonest, but it's been perfectly legal thus far. I know it sucks to be legally out maneuvered, but that's now the case. You might still pull a rabbit out of your hat, but as I said earlier, the Nic is legal...but moot. Courts rarely waste their time on moot issues.

Carl

Carl Spackler

I get this exactly. That's why I called you out on this statement of yours:

If you were trying to be rhetorical or sarcastic, then I understand. But you used the wrong words, punctuation and sentence structure to convey either sarcasm or rhetoric.

And you didn't even use a sarcasm smiley!

Carl

cactiboss

Lets see that was in response to r57 saying 3 separate lists but only usapa allowed to represent the west, most got the sarcasm.

cactiboss

You forget we merged in 2005 and all the downgrades and shrinking happened in 2008? Could it be that management shrunk the much more expensive pilot group and increased flying for the group that was cheaper?

Carl Spackler

I haven't "forgotten" anything cactiboss, you're just drawing the complete wrong conclusion from this. The reason your west operation shrank is because it couldn't compete against the challenge posed to you by Southwest. The cheaper east pilot rates had nothing to do with why you shrank. If it had, you'd still be flying all those flights out of Las Vegas and Phoenix with the cheaper east pilots flying them. That didn't happen. What happened was a wholesale retreat from those markets in response to Southwest. That same challenge from Southwest to east's PHL operation didn't work. The facts are now quite clear on this.

If the Nic award had been implemented, then the east pilots would have borne the brunt of the west's operational shrinkage due to their inability to fight Southwest. I know you think that would have been fair because you saved the east's operation, but you were legally outwitted...thus far.

Carl

cactiboss

You miss the point, we shrank 3 years after we were a single carrier. You also miss that we went from .07 casm to .14 casm because, wait for it..... We were one fn carrier for a full 3 years by then. Had the Nic been in place in 2007 which it should have been there would have been ZERO furloughs from either side as the west work rules alone required over 200 pilots on the east side.


PS. What part of we were a single carrier for a full 3 years don't you get? What part of the east is responsible for forcing separate ops and no contract for 8 years after the merger don't you understand?

P.S.S. Why are the east flying iae engined airbuses? Oh yeah Awa ordered airplanes that went east. How is that possible? Oh yeah we are a single carrier that has a cheaper pilot group in the east that is willing to work under a 10 year bankruptcy contract indefinitely.

R57 relay

We were a single carrier, operating with two separated pilot groups. Separated by the contract we all agree on, just as we are now.

Those IAE ABs were not AWA orders. They were renegotiated orders of the old US and AW. Go read the Nicolau opinion, US had more orders than AWA.