meyers9163

I guess I'm lost on the wholly own talk. I work for PSA. I don't care who at mainline knows who PSA is or isn't. Most realize it but if they don't care so be it. I'll say management knows about PSA and PDT as their pilots have gotten hired have done well in training. I rather them know that and continue to take our pilots then get a 'bone' thrown my way when things at the new AA need more attention then the wholly owns. Hell a seniority list and E190 pay being two. Seems they should focus on that not AE, PSA or PDT as a labor group.

Irishish

Exactly! You protect your own job through scope. I'm not necessarily blaming pilots for what they have given up in recent history as its been hard times for quite a while now, but at least it seems to be going in the right direction now. I think we need to realize we are all in this together and at least try to be on the same team (PDT, PSA, and US Airways are all three subsidiaries of the same company anyway).

R57 relay

You seem to be arguing against yourself, or I'm misunderstanding. You say you protect yourself through scope, but that we are on the same team and we have to look out for them.

Whether my flying was given to PDT, PSA or Mesa, we don't fly it anymore. To a large degree our pensions went to fund wacky Dave's 50 seat RJs that PSA is flying. How do you strengthen scope for the mainline while looking out for the wholly owned? What am I missing?

Take for example the Q400. Through a quirk in scope it wasn't allowed here. Most guys that are aware of that don't have anything against PDT flying them and a lot of us think they would be better for everyone concerned than 50 CRJs, in certain markets. But, why would we give it up for nothing? This company sure doesn't give us something for nothing. If the company really wanted them, there was a way to get them.

I know that the transformation of this business with regionals was going to happen, DL let that horse out of the barn while we (US) held the line at no jets at the regionals. And I would prefer that it was done in house, but my point is that no one can expect another group to take care of them. There has been a chip on some folks shoulders about that for some time now. Plus, when we tried to negotiate a flow through, there was resistance to flowing back down. I get it, I don't expect the wholly owned to protect my flying, but it goes both ways.

I wish Piedmont had structured things differently back when the bought Henson. I think ALPA messed it up and now we us vs. them, but that's the way it is.

I've flown with lots of great folks from PDT and PSA. I hope we keep hiring them and that our unions could work better together.

FixTheMess

I think the intent of my previous post was misunderstood by a few. (Maybe I was unclear.) I don't "need" acknowledgement from mainline pilots. What I need is for Piedmont to get treated slightly better than contract carrier regionals. Piedmont and PSA are severely limited in what control we have with our future, being wholly-owned.

The issue I have is mainline pilots relaxing scope, so bottom-feeder, lowest paying regionals can grow exponentially, all the while, Piedmont operates mostly 37 seat turboprops, sometimes at a higher rate than these contract cariers. (yes, in a perfect world, we would have 152's and caravans at the major carriers, getting paid the same rate as a 777 pilot.) Come on, it isn't realistic, and is NOT going to happen. There is a happy medium somewhere.

Piedmont flying 37 seat tp's on 50 mile legs is NOT the same as Republic flying E190's cross country.

I.e. It is idiotic that scope was relaxed to make this possible, all the while scope was upheld with regard to 70 seat turboprops, which very much has directly led to Piedmont's demise.

I wouldn't have any issue with this, if mainline pilots were trying very hard to secure 70 seat CRJ's, and Q400's for themselves. The fact is, they aren't, and they won't. They'd rather blame any and all regional pilots for the outsourcing of their jobs, when they should be blaming themselves. US Airways/American pilots: you want to fix outsourcing? Tighten your scope back up. Get rid of B-scales. YES, this will be at the price of negotiating other niceties such as higher pay, but you can't have it all. Stop blaming others for your mistakes.

Back to my original point, don't penalize your wholly owned Piedmont for operating 37 seat turboprop on appropriate routes, while you open the flood gates for Republic to operate larger jets across the nation.

As to the comments regarding not giving up something to get something . . .

A. The only thing not relaxing the 70 seat tp scope caused, was for more 70 seat CRJ's and E170's to be added instead of Q400's.

B. Only agreeing to relax this turboprop scope if you get your pensions back is ridiculous. Not even minutely realistic. The Piedmont pilots who "took your 37 seat turboprop flying," still have pensions. Whether you can admit it or not, you've helped kill a pilot group who did stick up for what was right.

C. Once again, I'd have more respect for your pilot group if you were in the process of securing these scoped Q400's at mainline. Heck, the ground work has been laid. There is already a B-scale for the 190's, might as well use this B-scale for Q400's too. You know, protect mainline jobs? Let me guess . . . no one has ever even brought it up to management? I wonder why?

D. What is USAPA getting from AE for defending them? You need to get something to give something right?

I think all this boils down to is that I don't have respect for hypocrisy, blaming others for one's own mistakes, and those that want to have their cake and eat it too. I'm a firm believer in integrity, and rarely do I see it in this industry.

-Sorry for hijacking the thread everyone. Carry on.

Irishish

Misunderstanding, yes. We (pilots, mainline, contractor, or wholly owned) are in this together. Non-mainline pilots, for the most part, don't want bigger aircraft at the regional level, they want more aircraft at mainline so they can one day fly those aircraft. Blaming each other for this and that does nothing to help the situation. Mainline scope is the reason for larger and more aircraft outsourced, and poor pay and work rules keep those aircraft flying. Mainline pilots take back scope, regional pilots stand up for decent contracts...together.

SpeedyVagabond

Fixthismess, you're wrong with respect to believing that what Piedmont and Republic are doing is different. You guys flying 50 mile legs is absolutely no different than our longer legs. Otherwise I think you have some good points. We're completely emasculated as regional pilots. The RLA won't let us strike. If by some miracle we do we'll be shut down just like Commair. There's no doubt in my mind that was a message being sent by Delta to us. If we do negotiate higher pay we'll lose flying to the new lowest bidder and likely find ourselves choking down concessions in bankruptcy. If there is going to be a fix to declining wages and benefits it must come from mainline pilots. I'm not holding my breath. Frankly, I don 't believe they can get scope back or even prevent all of us from getting larger planes. How is it that the three largest regionals all have plans to fly larger jets than current scope rules allow? Code share, coming soon to an airline near you. . .

R57 relay

Nice idea, pipe dream at this point I'm afraid. Pilots are their own worst enemy, ready to undercut others at anytime.

As far as Q400s, the company could have them if they want them. The mainline could fly them(we were negotiating mainline RJs when 9/11 hit) or the company could give us something for relaxing the scope.

Why is PSA flying the CRJs instead of PDT? Is that mainline pilot's fault? Also, the mainline contract allowed the outsourcing, but didn't say that PDT or PSA couldn't fly it. The company likes the current system of squeezing contract carriers. Would the company have accepted us dictating who flew the aircraft? I doubt it.

NC3rd

THe bone that was thrown your way was being able to travel at the same priority at mainline, and being able to keep that date of hire when you went to mainline. That's a gift.

FixTheMess

I would expect to travel at the same priority as mainline, since we are owned by the same company, with the same management pulling strings.

Keeping travel seniority isn't really a gift, since I should have flowed to mainline per our negotiated agreement, in which case I would have at least kept my travel seniority.

As it stands now, the only thing I can figure is that someone with a soul finally realized how disgusting it was to re nigh on our negotiated flow, so they made sure those that got hired would keep something. Kind of like someone winning the lottery, only the last digit on the winning number was slightly smudged, so instead of getting the 50 million, the purchaser got his $5 ticket refunded instead.