3 way seniority integration-Fire Away
12-02-2014 | 02:11 AM
#92
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,238
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Ok, I know this post will draw a lot of fire, but it should make for some interesting replies. Disclosure: I am a mid level narrow body capt at Legacy AA. I was hired between 88 and 92. My seniority is between 2400 and 4000 at LAA. Assumptions: 1. The Nic is not used in the model. My reasoning is a. I lack the knowledge the arbitrator used in fashioning the award. b. enough time has passed that the assumptions the award were based on are no longer valid. c. The two airlines are currently operating under 3 lists. 2. Date of hire is not used, only relative seniority. 3. Credit for Aircraft Orders is based on 50 percent of the order. (this number could be changed, but is a starting point. 4. Group 4 First officer slots are equivalent to group 2 Captain slots. This assumption was made by a previous arbitrator in a Legacy AA case. Further, in DFW the top 60 percent of the 777 FO list could be group 3 (not group 2, but group 3) captains. Group 1 Captains are feathered (slotted) with group 2 First officers. This is based not he fact that a new hire at L US can hold group 1 Captain, and based on the fact that the pay rate is roughly equivalent to Group 2 First officer. Base all ratios on current AAL staffing numbers, because after the transition to SOC, thats what the job opportunities will be based on. 5. No assumption was made about future aircraft retirements, this is moving target and would be difficult to predict the future. The same is applied to aircraft OPTIONS. 6. Specifically date of hire was not looked at due to the disparate hiring cycles of 3 airlines and wide swaths of seniority in each airline list.
So..lets begin..
These numbers are EXAMPLES only, actual integration based on real number.
Take number of Group 4 aircraft from US East, US PHX, LAA
Example East-30, PHX-0, LAA-50
Take number of Group 4 Options and multiply by .5 (assumption)
East-20 PHX-20 (orders are split because of assumption of future ISL.(integrated seniority list). and L AA.60. ..
Multiplied by .5 yields East 10 PHX 10, LAA 30..
Combine and you get East 40, PHX 10, LAA 80.
Start with The largest Group -AA...and ratio based on current manning
EXAMPLE: Start ratio at number one, end ratio at total aircraft (130 in EXAMPLE) multiplied by Group 4 manning. 6 Capts per aircraft times 130 yields 780 Group 4 captain slots ratioed by 8/13, 4/13, 1/13. Start at the top of Each list, AA, US East, PHX.
Next Ratio the Group 3 Aircraft slots the same way, with PHX and US East sharing the Group 3 Orders (times 50 percent)
Use the current LAA staffing level for group 3 Capts.
Next, Ratio the Group 2 Aircraft slots the same way, with one exception. Each Seniority list (PHX, US EAST, and LAA) get credit for Group 4 First officer manning per current aircraft and .5 of orders for Group 2 Captain slots.
Next, Since credit was given to Group 4 First officer slots to Group 2 Captain slots, Ratio the Group 3 First officer slots at current LAA manning levels with credit for .5 times Group 3 orders and again orders split between PHX and US East 50/50.
Next ratio Group 2 First officer lots with Group 1 Capt slots.
With credit for orders where due.
Anyone hired after dec 2013 is slotted by DATE OF HIRE.
Three year fences for Group 4 Aircraft.
Two year fences for Group 3 Aircraft.
No one can be bumped out of their seat. Only preference bidding across fences for two years..This issue would have to be refined.
This proposal gives everyone credit for
1. What they own now and what they are flying now.
2. Their relative position on the seniority list
3. Their career expectations relative to wide body flying and Capt positions.
4. It does not specifically recognize date of hire.
This is an idea that would need modification, but..lets hear some ideas. An arbitrator will probably decide this, but he will listen to our input.
So..lets begin..
These numbers are EXAMPLES only, actual integration based on real number.
Take number of Group 4 aircraft from US East, US PHX, LAA
Example East-30, PHX-0, LAA-50
Take number of Group 4 Options and multiply by .5 (assumption)
East-20 PHX-20 (orders are split because of assumption of future ISL.(integrated seniority list). and L AA.60. ..
Multiplied by .5 yields East 10 PHX 10, LAA 30..
Combine and you get East 40, PHX 10, LAA 80.
Start with The largest Group -AA...and ratio based on current manning
EXAMPLE: Start ratio at number one, end ratio at total aircraft (130 in EXAMPLE) multiplied by Group 4 manning. 6 Capts per aircraft times 130 yields 780 Group 4 captain slots ratioed by 8/13, 4/13, 1/13. Start at the top of Each list, AA, US East, PHX.
Next Ratio the Group 3 Aircraft slots the same way, with PHX and US East sharing the Group 3 Orders (times 50 percent)
Use the current LAA staffing level for group 3 Capts.
Next, Ratio the Group 2 Aircraft slots the same way, with one exception. Each Seniority list (PHX, US EAST, and LAA) get credit for Group 4 First officer manning per current aircraft and .5 of orders for Group 2 Captain slots.
Next, Since credit was given to Group 4 First officer slots to Group 2 Captain slots, Ratio the Group 3 First officer slots at current LAA manning levels with credit for .5 times Group 3 orders and again orders split between PHX and US East 50/50.
Next ratio Group 2 First officer lots with Group 1 Capt slots.
With credit for orders where due.
Anyone hired after dec 2013 is slotted by DATE OF HIRE.
Three year fences for Group 4 Aircraft.
Two year fences for Group 3 Aircraft.
No one can be bumped out of their seat. Only preference bidding across fences for two years..This issue would have to be refined.
This proposal gives everyone credit for
1. What they own now and what they are flying now.
2. Their relative position on the seniority list
3. Their career expectations relative to wide body flying and Capt positions.
4. It does not specifically recognize date of hire.
This is an idea that would need modification, but..lets hear some ideas. An arbitrator will probably decide this, but he will listen to our input.
No?
I'm coming to work in any case because the West pilots will hate their lot in life and will not support any job action or strike. With 1,700 unified strike breakers its self evident. Welcome to the "New APA" contingent.
12-02-2014 | 02:43 AM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,238
Likes: 0
Truthfully opinions in opposition to the Nicolau are of little relevance, as the Nicolau simply does not exist in any contract and can have no relevance at all apart from a contract. Ignorance, opposition, or ambivalence about the Nic have no impact on it. It was always and remains dead apart from a contract. The burden is on those who have a nostalgia for it, and who wish for it to someday be included in a contract.
I expect the West will be offered a merger committee pursuant to the Protocol Agreement. The 9th appeal will be dismissed with prejudice at AOL's request, and the Nic will remain absent from the employment data and thus excluded from the status quo. Or the West can refuse to participate and continue to pursue their lawsuits, and continue Liberty Tie sales.
I expect the West will be offered a merger committee pursuant to the Protocol Agreement. The 9th appeal will be dismissed with prejudice at AOL's request, and the Nic will remain absent from the employment data and thus excluded from the status quo. Or the West can refuse to participate and continue to pursue their lawsuits, and continue Liberty Tie sales.
http://scholarlycommons.law.hofstra....&context=hlelj
You may wish to do some reading by Ira Jaffe, one of our arbitrators in the SLI. Statutory law (and rulings thereof) can cause manifest disregard to establish growing cracks in the arbitration system thereby causing problems for their system of dispute resolution. In short, they become untrustworthy.
This is a matter of external law ...
"Second are claims of contractual breach, where external law is incorporated by agreement of the parties or where external law is cited by one or both parties as an aid for the interpretation and application of ambiguous contractual language. Arbitral use of external law as an aid to interpreting ambiguous contract language is little more than a specific application of the general contract law principle that,where two constructions of contract language exist, one lawful and the other unlawful, it is presumed that the parties intended the lawful course of action, and construction of the agreement consistent with law is favored. Incorporation of external law into the agreement evidences the parties' joint intention that the claimed violations of external law also violate the agreement and are to be adjudicated and en- forced through the grievance and arbitration procedures. Since the arbitrator is furthering the intent of the parties, there can be no serious objection to arbitral consideration of external law."
Judge Silver ruled in Federal Courts that the West does not have participant status under McCaskill-Bond and if the Appeals Court supports this premise it could very well cut WIDE OPEN the SLI in the future award if it is disregarded by the PAB.
I'm looking forward to the pilots here to continue to "slit their own throats" by simply disregarding the tried a true method and reasons that unions have promoted since the late 1800's. DOH with LOS adjustment. Period.
Labor never learns.
12-02-2014 | 03:02 AM
#94
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,238
Likes: 0
I just love rubbing your APA (and West) pilots nose's in it the crap when the East pilots tried to give you and yours insight into what you were getting into but NO......YOU AND YOURS GOT THIS.
Well, now you got this!!!
I will guarantee all the pilots here at the "New American" one thing: it's not because of Glass (or me, for that matter) that your "unity" is at stake. It's your illogical and over grand illusions that the APA pilots are SO MUCH BETTER than every other pilot in the world. And do you KNOW what the KEY DIVIDER IS?: SENIORITY and the LACK of any objective way pilot mergers (which will continue to occur in the future)
are handled. Its your loss because the company doesn't car about seniority. And all the pilots have is their reasons for WHY they go in front of somebody else for promotion and furlough.
You guys get on the web boards over at C&R and just think you can stick to the company. Talking about ME being "delusional" you guys got me beat my MILES.
I'm looking forward to the day in the near future when the Company tells you to stick it where the sun doesn't shine and your "unity" simply goes down the toilet.
GET A GRIP ON REALITY.
I'm bidding Captain on the 777 the first bid I can hold it and you can be sure I'll be enjoying my new found status as a New American SENIOR CAPTAIN then. Oh, and I'll continue to give YOU the what for enjoying my NEW position.
You smarta$$ APA pilots "got this"!
12-02-2014 | 03:09 AM
#95
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,238
Likes: 0
Ok, I know this post will draw a lot of fire, but it should make for some interesting replies. Disclosure: I am a mid level narrow body capt at Legacy AA. I was hired between 88 and 92. My seniority is between 2400 and 4000 at LAA. Assumptions: 1. The Nic is not used in the model. My reasoning is a. I lack the knowledge the arbitrator used in fashioning the award. b. enough time has passed that the assumptions the award were based on are no longer valid. c. The two airlines are currently operating under 3 lists. 2. Date of hire is not used, only relative seniority. 3. Credit for Aircraft Orders is based on 50 percent of the order. (this number could be changed, but is a starting point. 4. Group 4 First officer slots are equivalent to group 2 Captain slots. This assumption was made by a previous arbitrator in a Legacy AA case. Further, in DFW the top 60 percent of the 777 FO list could be group 3 (not group 2, but group 3) captains. Group 1 Captains are feathered (slotted) with group 2 First officers. This is based not he fact that a new hire at L US can hold group 1 Captain, and based on the fact that the pay rate is roughly equivalent to Group 2 First officer. Base all ratios on current AAL staffing numbers, because after the transition to SOC, thats what the job opportunities will be based on. 5. No assumption was made about future aircraft retirements, this is moving target and would be difficult to predict the future. The same is applied to aircraft OPTIONS. 6. Specifically date of hire was not looked at due to the disparate hiring cycles of 3 airlines and wide swaths of seniority in each airline list.
So..lets begin..
These numbers are EXAMPLES only, actual integration based on real number.
Take number of Group 4 aircraft from US East, US PHX, LAA
Example East-30, PHX-0, LAA-50
Take number of Group 4 Options and multiply by .5 (assumption)
East-20 PHX-20 (orders are split because of assumption of future ISL.(integrated seniority list). and L AA.60. ..
Multiplied by .5 yields East 10 PHX 10, LAA 30..
Combine and you get East 40, PHX 10, LAA 80.
Start with The largest Group -AA...and ratio based on current manning
EXAMPLE: Start ratio at number one, end ratio at total aircraft (130 in EXAMPLE) multiplied by Group 4 manning. 6 Capts per aircraft times 130 yields 780 Group 4 captain slots ratioed by 8/13, 4/13, 1/13. Start at the top of Each list, AA, US East, PHX.
Next Ratio the Group 3 Aircraft slots the same way, with PHX and US East sharing the Group 3 Orders (times 50 percent)
Use the current LAA staffing level for group 3 Capts.
Next, Ratio the Group 2 Aircraft slots the same way, with one exception. Each Seniority list (PHX, US EAST, and LAA) get credit for Group 4 First officer manning per current aircraft and .5 of orders for Group 2 Captain slots.
Next, Since credit was given to Group 4 First officer slots to Group 2 Captain slots, Ratio the Group 3 First officer slots at current LAA manning levels with credit for .5 times Group 3 orders and again orders split between PHX and US East 50/50.
Next ratio Group 2 First officer lots with Group 1 Capt slots.
With credit for orders where due.
Anyone hired after dec 2013 is slotted by DATE OF HIRE.
Three year fences for Group 4 Aircraft.
Two year fences for Group 3 Aircraft.
No one can be bumped out of their seat. Only preference bidding across fences for two years..This issue would have to be refined.
This proposal gives everyone credit for
1. What they own now and what they are flying now.
2. Their relative position on the seniority list
3. Their career expectations relative to wide body flying and Capt positions.
4. It does not specifically recognize date of hire.
This is an idea that would need modification, but..lets hear some ideas. An arbitrator will probably decide this, but he will listen to our input.
So..lets begin..
These numbers are EXAMPLES only, actual integration based on real number.
Take number of Group 4 aircraft from US East, US PHX, LAA
Example East-30, PHX-0, LAA-50
Take number of Group 4 Options and multiply by .5 (assumption)
East-20 PHX-20 (orders are split because of assumption of future ISL.(integrated seniority list). and L AA.60. ..
Multiplied by .5 yields East 10 PHX 10, LAA 30..
Combine and you get East 40, PHX 10, LAA 80.
Start with The largest Group -AA...and ratio based on current manning
EXAMPLE: Start ratio at number one, end ratio at total aircraft (130 in EXAMPLE) multiplied by Group 4 manning. 6 Capts per aircraft times 130 yields 780 Group 4 captain slots ratioed by 8/13, 4/13, 1/13. Start at the top of Each list, AA, US East, PHX.
Next Ratio the Group 3 Aircraft slots the same way, with PHX and US East sharing the Group 3 Orders (times 50 percent)
Use the current LAA staffing level for group 3 Capts.
Next, Ratio the Group 2 Aircraft slots the same way, with one exception. Each Seniority list (PHX, US EAST, and LAA) get credit for Group 4 First officer manning per current aircraft and .5 of orders for Group 2 Captain slots.
Next, Since credit was given to Group 4 First officer slots to Group 2 Captain slots, Ratio the Group 3 First officer slots at current LAA manning levels with credit for .5 times Group 3 orders and again orders split between PHX and US East 50/50.
Next ratio Group 2 First officer lots with Group 1 Capt slots.
With credit for orders where due.
Anyone hired after dec 2013 is slotted by DATE OF HIRE.
Three year fences for Group 4 Aircraft.
Two year fences for Group 3 Aircraft.
No one can be bumped out of their seat. Only preference bidding across fences for two years..This issue would have to be refined.
This proposal gives everyone credit for
1. What they own now and what they are flying now.
2. Their relative position on the seniority list
3. Their career expectations relative to wide body flying and Capt positions.
4. It does not specifically recognize date of hire.
This is an idea that would need modification, but..lets hear some ideas. An arbitrator will probably decide this, but he will listen to our input.
Let's say you were hired in 1990 (between 87 and 92 no furlough).
AMR contract uses DOH.
A US Airways pilot was hired in 1985 (no furlough).
US Airways contract uses DOH. (Same standard as AMR).
WHO IS SENIOR?
12-02-2014 | 03:28 AM
#96
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,238
Likes: 0
Lufthansa pilot strike extends to long-haul, cargo flights | Reuters
"The two-day pilot strike, the ninth this year in a drawn-out dispute over an early retirement scheme, has forced Germany's flagship airline to cancel close to half of all scheduled flights for Monday and Tuesday. About 150,000 passengers are affected."
Hey, why are half the pilots still flying????
That's what it will be like here in 2019(20) although the company is going to have OODLES of money in the bank.
You go APA!!
"The two-day pilot strike, the ninth this year in a drawn-out dispute over an early retirement scheme, has forced Germany's flagship airline to cancel close to half of all scheduled flights for Monday and Tuesday. About 150,000 passengers are affected."
Hey, why are half the pilots still flying????
That's what it will be like here in 2019(20) although the company is going to have OODLES of money in the bank.
You go APA!!
12-02-2014 | 04:35 AM
#97
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: CR7/9 Captain
Lufthansa pilot strike extends to long-haul, cargo flights | Reuters
"The two-day pilot strike, the ninth this year in a drawn-out dispute over an early retirement scheme, has forced Germany's flagship airline to cancel close to half of all scheduled flights for Monday and Tuesday. About 150,000 passengers are affected."
Hey, why are half the pilots still flying????
That's what it will be like here in 2019(20) although the company is going to have OODLES of money in the bank.
You go APA!!
"The two-day pilot strike, the ninth this year in a drawn-out dispute over an early retirement scheme, has forced Germany's flagship airline to cancel close to half of all scheduled flights for Monday and Tuesday. About 150,000 passengers are affected."
Hey, why are half the pilots still flying????
That's what it will be like here in 2019(20) although the company is going to have OODLES of money in the bank.
You go APA!!
12-02-2014 | 04:49 AM
#98
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
From: My comfy old Barcalounger
12-02-2014 | 05:35 AM
#99
Weekend workaholic
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 669
Likes: 0
From: A320 CA
There are only about +1,500 West pilots left...quite a downsize from the +1800 employed at the time of the merger announcement with USAir. But hey, let's not water down your dribble with facts. And where do you come up with the strike breaker accusation? I can say without hesitation the West would honor and support any action by our representational Union. I am however, not surprised and your willingness to "come to work". You (and many of your peers) have been playing the "screw the group, it's time I get mine" card for so long I'm sure you'd cross and sleep like a baby. Come on, blaming the West your your willingness to scab...classic.
12-02-2014 | 05:52 AM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 1,238
Likes: 0
No. Let's make it simple and let a neutral third party decide what's reasonable.
There are only about +1,500 West pilots left...quite a downsize from the +1800 employed at the time of the merger announcement with USAir. But hey, let's not water down your dribble with facts. And where do you come up with the strike breaker accusation? I can say without hesitation the West would honor and support any action by our representational Union. I am however, not surprised and your willingness to "come to work". You (and many of your peers) have been playing the "screw the group, it's time I get mine" card for so long I'm sure you'd cross and sleep like a baby. Come on, blaming the West your your willingness to scab...classic.
There are only about +1,500 West pilots left...quite a downsize from the +1800 employed at the time of the merger announcement with USAir. But hey, let's not water down your dribble with facts. And where do you come up with the strike breaker accusation? I can say without hesitation the West would honor and support any action by our representational Union. I am however, not surprised and your willingness to "come to work". You (and many of your peers) have been playing the "screw the group, it's time I get mine" card for so long I'm sure you'd cross and sleep like a baby. Come on, blaming the West your your willingness to scab...classic.
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