R57 relay

Let's look at another scenario. We vote this down. The BOD rightly decides to accept our decision and not take the offer anyway. We go to arbitration and ask for nothing, and the company asks for nothing either, except for a timeline to finish up items like the division split. We agreed in the MOU to let them implement things on their time, so Bloch says "Okay, you've got another year."

So, we're done for now, just waiting on Delta pilots to save our bacon. A couple of problems. If we turn this down, we will make less than DL pilots for at least 4 years. No matter how high their raise is, the UA average drops ours to lower than they are. So even if their CEO wants to stick it to Doug, he can't without sticking it to himself. Then figure in the fact that they bet wrong on fuel hedges and own a refinery. And in this morning's state of the airline, the slide showed that DL's CASM rose twice as fast as ours last year. I don't see those adding up to the 20%+ raise needed for us to just break even moving forward. Maybe, I just don't see it.

So, if they don't get that big of a raise, or worse they bog down and don't get a raised at all before Jan 1, where will we be? For everyone that is in their last contract they will fume that they left money on the table, in addition to the few sweeteners like the 5:10 day. Everyone will make less than they could have. All our newhires will be fuming that they are making half of what they could. Then we will have the SLI and everyone will be mad and thinking about their lost seniority and money. Then let's say the company uses it's year to come up with a strategy to no open separate bases, but do the flying out of different ones. No gain there.

But hey, we still have HBT you say. So the company wants to open new 787 cities, so here's our chance! They say give up HBT or we will sell our delivery positions and just code share those long routes. Don't get in front of the door when those senior guys are trying to get in to give it up then.

Could it happen your way, or mine? Who knows. It all comes down to our life experiences and our risk tolerance. But here's something I don't understand. The other day my F/O was talking about our pilot group(US east). He was complaining about how we had no backbone, and rolled over every time. Well, you know the saying about the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome? If we really do have a group with no backbone, why would you expect them to now grow one and do what is necessary to make a no vote work?

Let me give you an analogy. Parker is King of the city. We are the workers outside the wall, producing the crops that feed the city. The national government set up some protections that in theory help both sides, and keep the food moving. The RLA is the wall around the city and the government appointed an administrator(the NMB) to make sure everyone plays fair. This system worked okay for a while, but the administrator became more interested in making sure the food kept flowing than fairness and leans towards the Kings side. The King has to negotiate with us peasants, but he has a crack team of guards(Glass and Hemmingway) that are well armed. We on the other hand are a group of 80 year old former French soldiers, armed with muskets. Every few years our leaders get mad and decide to storm the main gate. The say "Let's go boys, let's get em!" The old soldiers say "Eh, I would, but this arthritis is kinda getting me today. You go ahead." It fails, every time. Who is insane?

I personally think the better option is to vote yes and then admit that we failed and left a lot on the table. We need to see where we failed, and what we can do to change things. I wish the APA had taken the time to ask us what we wanted. I think a lot of us would have taken a slightly smaller raise, and better work rules. They never asked us and got caught in the Glass bear trap. We have to realize that the game has become rigged in the companies favor, and try to figure out a way to do business without trying to storm the gate every 4-5 years.

IMHO of course, I could be wrong.

DCA A321 FO

Unfortunately we know all too well, the combination of a trustless management team coupled with poor contract language is a very dangerous cocktail. Don’t be deceived in thinking LOA 15-02 is a fair process because it’s not. The language included this LOA was completely drafted by the company and unchanged by APA. The carefully crafted language is just a means to a predetermined outcome that will significantly reduce our medical benefits. It’s not a matter of if our benefits will be reduced/eliminated but rather when. This is not fear mongering, it’s a fact.
We have had our work rules devastated, our pension terminated (frozen at AA), and now the company is attempting to conquer the last big ticket item that remains, our medical benefits. Does anyone actually believe that LOA 15-02 will result in the same medical plan(s) we have today? Of course not. In fact, we predict if the JCBA is ratified and the company takes us through the one-sided LOA 15-02 process (sooner rather than later), we will all look back, shake our heads and say to one another, “what were we thinking?” And of course at that point it will be too late.
We wish we worked for a management team we could truly trust; unfortunately, we do not. In looking back at the past 10 years we have seen countless examples of this management continuously abusing the pilot group. Understand however, much of the mistreatment has occurred as a result of poorly drafted contract language -- poorly drafted language that we agreed to. Let’s learn from our mistakes and not allow this to happen again with something as important as our health benefits. Because like our pension, once it’s gone, it’s gone forever.

Paul DiOrio Paul Music

R57 relay

Then why didn't the company take the BOD's offer to ratify without a membership vote in exchange for calendar day in a split second?

DCA A321 FO

I don't know Cuz, I just smell a rat, or two.

Wiskey Driver

I think I would feel better with a no vote if this place had unity. There is no real unity here. A unified pilot group would be able to send the message that most here feel needs to be sent. The fractured group allows management to play the 50% plus 1 game and should they fail they would feel comfortable falling back on the MTA rates.

Now should this thing fail by a large margin it would send a very different message to our management, one where the group could in fact get some other items. The fact that we a so fractured here really weakens us as a whole and not until we become a more unified group will we ever be able to strike fear into the hearts of management.

WD at AWA

whiskeyhatch

Then please don't throw your hands up and become a part of the problem. I think that there's more unity than you might think. I've seen the same name calling and mud slinging that you have but I won't let that define my union as a whole. This JCBA was passed to the pilot group by a vote of what, 12-10? So, this JCBA gets 2.5 out of 5 stars? If I were shopping on Amazon, I probably wouldn't buy Anything rated 2.5 out of 5 stars to run my life, much less vacuum my floors or toast my bread! Furthermore, if I understand correctly, 8 of those 12 are ultimately voting No against this debacle. What does that say? Let us give Slick PK their wants when they can balance it with what we are Worth! With all due respect, my brother.

A321

...because the company thinks that calendar day would be a waste of money when they already have a yes vote from all the push overs. If they worried about not getting the 51% then they would have accepted the deal.

...but we had ridiculous reps like ORD and LAX already shouting take the deal, giving up all leverage.

Unreal.

We need a backbone. The membership has to turn this down.

AB YZS

from another site:

"Everywhere I go, I run into pilots that ask me how I will vote. Many of you have sent me your opinions or called expressing their intent to vote "yes" or "no" with your reasons. I have kept my opinions to myself since I realize that each pilot has his or her own reasons to vote based on their needs. If you are short timer, you just want the money now so you can get the hell out of here. I get it. I have only 18 months left before retirement.

But what is surprising to me is how much confusion and disinformation is spreading out there. Some of that disinformation, like Keith Wilson's letter is a deliberate attempt to hide or ignore certain facts and some is just confusion in a complex decision. It is not my intent to try to talk you into or out of your decision. I don't have that kind of persuasive powers anyway so I won't attempt it. But I can try to clear up some confusion so you can make a more educated decision.

Our two choices boil down to this. We vote "no" and Parker says he will still offer the same deal minus the retroactive pay back to December even if we go to arbitration. Regardless, we still get a raise now.

Here, there seems to be a great deal of confusion. Based on the language in the MOU, if we go to arbitration and ask for no changes to our agreement, then that's it. Nothing changes. The company cannot initiate a change on it's own. Only we can. We get a raise now and in 11 months, we get a much bigger raise equal to our peers and still keep our current work rules.

If we vote "yes" there are tradeoffs we need to be willing to understand and accept. We get a large pay raise with retroactive pay back to December 2nd but quickly fall behind our peers in benefits and pay. We will never catch up to them again. In addition, we lose some important work rules and benefits that offsets that raise and will would greatly affect our quality of life. That's it in a nut shell. Not very complicated when it is boiled down to simple facts.

Some dreamers have suggested that maybe we will be able to get those work rules and benefits back someday. Those work rules and benefits we lose will NEVER come back. They never do and never will. Why would we give them up now and expect them to come back later? We gave them up when the company was making record profits. That is a ridiculous assumption to think we would get them back later when profits are less than record setting.

So let's look at how those work rules will affect us in the future.

The 757's are getting old. They are also much less efficient than the current A321's by about 20%. Right now, the 321 can easily replace the 757's on domestic routes. As we speak, Airbus is launching the A321 neo which will match the 757's in range and be even more cost effective to fly internationally. They will not have the cargo capacity of the 757, but with crews flying them at A319 rates, it makes them much more cost effective.

By removing the separation of domestic and international operations, it will allow the company to schedule trips with both on the same trip pairing. Sounds OK, right? Maybe.

Let's look at losing average day. Why do we have duty rigs anyway? We have them to make the company more efficient in scheduling crews. With rigs, we don't fly a 1 hour leg and sit for 24 hours and then fly 1 hour back for a 2 day trip paying a total of 2 hours. That's the way it use to be in the bad old days. Unions negotiated duty rigs so it would make it too expensive for the company to schedule a trip like that, giving us more time off because we work more hours per day. Airlines have been pecking away at rigs since 9/11 and because the airlines were in desperate need, they did get some help. Now we are losing another of them, but at a time the airlines are making record profits. Why? It makes no sense! At a time of record profits, we are accepting a concessionary contract! Are we that desperate?

So, let's look at a trip based on these 3 items we are giving up. You can fly from CLT to PHL and sit for a 24 layover. The next day, you can fly PHL - DUB and sit 24 more hours and then fly back to PHL and then CLT for a grand total of 16 hours for a 4 day trip at 319 pay rates. To fly 85 hours, you will need to fly that trip 5 times for a total of 20 days per month. Pick any combination of domestic/international routes with the same results. How does that pay raise look now? The new planes, the domestic/international combinations and the Group 2 pay rates are all interconnected to make us a very very cost effective pilot group. Your sacrifice has allowed this to happen. Good for you! You're the best and can't complain because you voted for it. No *****ing allowed.

Group 1 Pay.
American has no Group 1 airplanes and as far as the APA is concerned, it is a non-issue. Maybe not for long and they are very short sighted if they believe it is not in their future. So, let's take a hypothetical that is not so very far fetched. The former AWE A319's and 320's are at the end of their life span. Just suppose the company orders 195's to replace them? Look at the cost advantage the company gets by having mainline pilots flying for regional wages flying the less expensive 195's on formally 319 trips? Now take the other work rules and benefits away and we are even more cost effective. Why would Parker and Kirby fight so hard to keep Group 1 pay if they plan on getting rid of the 190's. After all, currently we only have 20 of them. How does that new pay rate look now based on Group 1?

Now, let's look at the medical plan proposal. Obamacare has hit everyone in the pocketbook. In 2018, it will hit the people like us and our families that went to school, spent tens of thousands of dollars in training, spent years working for sub-standard wages here or at a regional where you finally got the 'lottery ticket' at a major airline. One reason we spent so much money on training, worked so hard and gave up many years of higher pay was because we negotiated a better medical plan for security that someone that didn't sacrifice might have. Obama calls it a "Cadillac Plan." I call it a reward for excelling and sacrificing some of what I could have had so I could have that kind of security in my life. That was the tradeoff. We negotiated some pay so the company would offer the medical plan we needed for our security and that of our families.

Now, along comes Obamacare and poof, we are giving up that "Cadillac Plan" with no opportunity to change that outcome if Obamacare is likely changed or overturned. The company's answer is, 'we will get arbitration.' The fix will be in. How many arbitrations do we have to go through before we realize it's a rigged system? Giving that option up now, while we don't need to and while the company is making unbelievable record profits is not only folly, but in my opinion, criminal! That big pay raise you get will vanish like a puff of smoke with any kind of serious medical condition. I have been here long enough to have seen a great many perfectly healthy pilots suddenly without warning have a life and career threatening illness that change their lives and many were young men. Almost every pilot here for more than a few years will tell a story about how a family member was helped by the medical plan we earned and without it, would have faced certain financial ruin. Give that up now and ask yourself how that pay raise looks if something happens to you or a member of your family. If anything, we should be getting more benefits right now, not less!

LTD. The company is demanding the right to offset your wages or eliminate them all together if it, not you determines you can find a job in another field, even if you can't! What recourse do you have? None. You voted those rights away. Unbelievable!

I don't know Keith Wilson's motivation but based on the vague language in this proposal, the punishing work rule and benefit changes and the history of how Parker and Kirby operate, he is derelict in his duty to protect this pilot group from abuse. If he hasn't learned from our past experience, he should have learned from his current experience. Is his fix in? No way of knowing. Reminds me of another Union President that works hand in glove with our management to undermine the pilot group he was supposed to be protecting. For a Union President to cave so quickly and so completely makes me very suspicious of his motives.

One thing everyone needs to remember, this is NOT Section 6 negotiations. It is an agreement to take what the company is offering and accept what can only be viewed as a moderate pay raise, at best while losing the ability to receive future industry pay raises and some very important and earned work rules and benefits as a trade off. Again I can't stress it enough, it is not Section 6....it is an agreement only and should be viewed as such.

Everyone should open their eyes and realize that Parker and Kirby are not your friends. They are not offering this because they want good relations with their employee group. They have squandered every opportunity for a better working relationship with this pilot group. They did it with the certain knowledge of how it will affect the quality of our lives here and yet, they don't care. For them, it's about the numbers and is just business. They will now have 15,000 extremely unhappy pilots.

Some may believe that Parker and Kirby realize how we feel and are giving us the Delta rates now as appeasement. Well, here is a news flash. Under the employment agreement that Parker and Kirby have with AAG, for them to receive the same compensation package that both DAL and UAL CEO's and Presidents receive, they have to give us DAL and UAL wages. That public record was found in Form 8-K filings with the Security Exchange Commission. They want their money. They also want you to believe they are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. They also want you to give up important work rules in the process. Do you want to trade? That is the decision you have to make.

Think he was just being wonderful when he gave the flight attendants a raise after they turned down his proposal? Is it possible that after we turn this down, he will give us that pay raise anyway? He wants his money. His ego requires that he be equal with his peers.

The following comes from the Form 8-K filings in case you are too busy to read the entire link.

"The directors also consider Mr. Parker's commitment to maintain his annual target total compensation below his peers at Delta Airlines and United Airlines until the compensation payable to the Company's larger work groups are adjusted in line with such peers."

Here is the link: Form 8-K

Pilots ***** all the time. What else can we do sitting for long hours in a cockpit. But in the old days, we *****ed about small insignificant things that really didn't amount to much. Certain days off we didn't get. Scheduling. No jet way drivers. Lousy food, crappy hotels, short nights, commuting, complaining flight attendants, etc.

For the first few paychecks, there will be little *****ing. Look at the nice pay raise. Then the new work rules will begin to be implemented and watch what happens. This will become a very very unhappy place to work. Do Parker/Kirby care? Not even a little. They have one requirment from you. Do your job or else and you won't like the "else." But American Airlines will never be a great airline. The New American will look very like the old American. All that BS about "greatness" was really a PR Campaign for the stockholders and the American pilots to believe that this time, things will be different.

They lied to the American pilots about how things would change here so they could realize their dream of running the World's largest airline. Think they are not doing the same to you now with this proposal?

Parker/Kirby/Glass have run the numbers and understand that if the vote is yes, they win big. If the vote is "no," they lose later. This is not about "the milk of human kindness."

I hope this gives you a clearer picture of the decisions you have to make. Each will decide for himself what he feels he needs. Choose wisely because this is your life."

AB YZS

from another post:

Ultimately it is your decision to make. But make sure you are looking at the facts correctly. The

negotiating committee tries to put out the information the best they can but there is one important detail

missing in their presentation. When they look at the valuations, they look at the numbers the way the

company does. As pilots, we need to realize there is a tax implication on every financial assumption they

make.

As a Group 2 Captain the difference in pay and the present MTA between now and the end of 2018 (we

can't use 2019 numbers as the Negotiating Committee did if we are doing apples to apples) is $101,633.

Throw in DC and you are up to $117,894. Let's say you end up paying about 40% on your last dollar of

income in various taxes. That gives you $60,980 in wages and $16,261 in DC for a total of $77,241.

For a Group 2 F/O, the difference in pay and the present MTA between now and the end of 2018 is

$72,026. Throw in DC and you are up to $83,550. Let's say you end up paying about 40% on your last

dollar of income in various taxes. That gives you $43,215 in wages and $11,524 in DC for a total of

$54,740 in your pocket.

In return you have guaranteed that this is a ten year deal and your pay will be stagnate. This is true

because you have prematurely sold out your medical early and have not been properly compensated for

it. You have also cleared the way for a 200 aircraft E190 fleet to be manned by the most junior pilots in

both seats. Management has everything they need well into the future.

While riding jumpseat this Fall from DTW to PHL, the Captain turned out to be a MSP Rep. When he

found out I was a former PHL Rep, he opened up about an experience the Board at DAL had with

Anderson at a meeting. They relayed to Anderson that if they had a deal before Jan. of 2016 he could

influence the pilot cost at AAL. Anderson's response was that he was well aware of that and also that he

has never not had a contract before the amendable date.

The point I am trying to make is that DAL will have a contract by 2016 and that will provide substantially

more money than the current MTA. Parker knows this and that is why they are offering us enticements

such as December pay and extending the deadline. For much less than the afore-mentioned $77,241 or

$54,740, by voting yes you are giving up on future medical benefits and handing the company several

hundred million dollars in savings in pilot cost on the E190. I actually believe the deal to be

concessionary. Your future medical cost will far outweigh what you are receiving in the deal.

It's your vote, but make sure you can live with it for the next ten years because you will have no leverage

to do anything. You will also be purchasing your own medical insurance and you have been vastly under

compensated for it.

On the other hand, if we turn it down we are backstopped by the MTA and we will get raises in 2016

based on a new Delta pay rate. We also will come out the other side with the Green Book intact and will

have negotiating leverage with the company. They still need our help in putting this deal together.

As a former PHL Representative the decision is an easy one. I am voting no!

R57 relay

Just a couple of things.

1) We at LUS east and LAA don't have calendar day. The MTA that everyone says we will just accept at arbitration does not have calendar day.
2) We won't get a raise now. That was conditional on the BOD unanimously agreeing to accept the offer on the table after a vote. CLT and PHX said they wouldn't do that.
3) Under the authors example of a 4 day trip, he forget the trip rig. If I'm generous with the dept and arrival times i come up with 70 TAFB, which equals 20hrs. Would pay 20:40 under JCBA.
4) MTA 190 rates are lower than JCBA rates. Why not buy them now?

Got to run.