whiskeyhatch

I think you might be missing the point. It's not that we should be fearful of a future order of E190s. Rather, we should not get too starry-eyed with the pay increases being offered because you just might eventually fall into a lower Group with any future changes in the fleet. In other words, our Gets might not really match the value of our Gives in the long run. Doesn't matter now, but that was what all the excitement was about.

flyinawa

While I agree with your overall "it will all work out" philosophy, I do scratch my head at the "it will be junior so that's okay" acceptance. I'm sure the creators of the original B-scale used a similar "they'll just be happy to be here" thought process. Pretty soon "they" will be "us" and a perceived sellout of the lower ranks will ultimately cause a (larger) rift with the more senior pilots.

We are far better off (in my opinion) having all of these aircraft flown in house. When the East training head Bob Skinner got sent down to Eagle Recruitment, I suspected something bigger was in the works and wouldn't be surprised if AE somehow interacts more closely with entry into AA. It would certainly open a pipeline for new pilots and the retraining cost are minimal ((AE e175 to AA e190/195). Maybe the large Embriers will become the grey area in between the two airlines.

Hueypilot

And?

If anything that only demonstrates this mgt doesn't really want a bunch of Group I airplanes unless they are at the regionals or because the regionals can't staff.

Hueypilot

E190 CA would pay more than Group II FO except for maybe those at or near 12 years.

E190 FO is definitely a step down, but hopefully that can be remedied in the future. But it's definitely better than it was.

eaglefly

I say it will be OK for those junior because inline five says those pilots will be happy to be here and enjoying themselves, so I guess they will. Sadly, we all should have seen what the JCBA disaster taught us. It taught us we are a fragmented pilot group more interested in short-term gratification vs. long-term viability with a fragmented and clumsy leadership. Even sadder, is that if one looks at the past here, thats been a consistant theme. In fact, before I got here no major airline pilot group had a bigger reputation for "eating their young" then AA pilots. In 2020, that fragmentation will be even more apparent as the older majority 55+ most of whom lost their pensions will focus on whats good for them. That's going to be the reality and I wish I could offer a better outlook, but were bankrupt of any leverage to force Parker to do anything.

inline five

Every airline used to have the small crappy junior plane no one wanted. NWA had the DC9, 747 and various aircraft in between. Remember their DC9 had what 80 seats or something?

It's unbelievable to me that we are ****ing on these aircraft. Now, if they were unilaterally parking Airbii and delivering E195's that is different and I will be right there with you, however so far that doesn't look like what they are trying to do.

eaglefly

I'm not near year 12 and for my rate year its about $4+/hour less then GII F/O and about $9/hour less then GIII F/O, so I dont know where you're getting your data. If Parker wants to increase it in the future, I suppose he could, but we certainly won't be able to do anything but ask. In the past, when we've asked Parker, he said "no".

eaglefly

No, instead Parking S80's and replacing many with Group I and since S80 pays the same as Airbus, what's the difference ? No big deal as I said, as even if they ordered 100 or 150, it would be a junior pilot issue, but won't be a problem as you stated because those pilots will still enjoy themselves and be happy to be here, so no worries, yes ?

Hueypilot

You are correct...it's about the 5-6 year point when Group II FO pulls away.

APA would do well to poll the membership about what issues were most important and attempt to craft a realistic bargain to present to the company. Perhaps higher Group I raises in exchange for slightly lower Group II-IV raises. Put more emphasis on work rules instead of pay rates, and so on.

A lot will depend on the financial and economic landscape in 2020. If times are still the same as now or better, I think the regionals will be hurting for bodies and the mainline may even feel the pinch as qualified new hires avoid AA or leave AA for DL, UA or even WN.

If the economic landscape is dreary, then obviously that will impact our ability to negotiate. We will just have to wait and see.

Hueypilot

Many of the older guys tell me stories of when they were flying BAC111s, F.28s and short DC-9s. Then the purpose-built regional turboprops and regional jets arrived and suddenly the mainline guys were more than happy to shed those lower paying jobs...then they saw what it did to the industry and most would agree we need to get that flying back.

I want that flying back even at today's Group I pay rates. It'll be better for the industry in the long run, and a better path to a mainline career. We just need to look for opportunities to close the pay gap.