R57 relay

I thought of putting this on C&R, but after seeing guys argue with up about A3 DH, I decided that even. I am not hardheaded enough to go through that. Besides, I'd like the opinions of pilots from other groups.

Has anyone worked under block representation? Pros, cons? It seems like it would a good first step towards helping with APA dysfunction.

I'd like to see the board cut, maybe by half. How do 22 pilots ever agree on anything? And it seems that our interests run more along seniority lines than bases. For example, the CLT reps are both group 2 or 3 captains. Even if they want to, they can't fully understand the wants/needs of junior F/Os. They were once junior F/Os, but a long time ago and there are a lot of differences now.

Thoughts? Pitfalls? One pitfall I can see would be the workload per member. But maybe we could have other volunteers to handle things like Chief pilot visits and allow the reps to just handle BOD work.

Fire away.

Upsddown

If you think APA is the only dysfunctional representative body.

From the DAL thread:


It's not APA, it's democratic representation, whereas a bare majority of people are only passively involved.

APA, ALPA and your local, state or federal government. I can't think of one representative body that isn't dysfunctional.

R57 relay

Oh, I agree. When guys complain about AA I say "Go to APC and read the Delta boards. You know, the guys with all the profit sharing? See if it sounds any different!" And it's not just pilots. I somehow got elected to president of a 5 member HOA board. I want to shoot 3 of them.

But do you think block representation would help?

Upsddown

No. It wouldn't solve the problem you state. It would exacerbate it.

The problem we have with our union (or for that matter with most other representational bodies) is we have leaders fighting each other over individualistic issues representing in our case, 15,000 individuals fighting (or willing to fight) for only the issues that concern them.

The difference between the pilots of today and the pilots of the past (50s-70s) is that the pilots of the past were able to achieve great success because they were unified and fighting for the same cause.

Today, unlike the past, each segmented group is only concerned about their own hide. With so many more diverse issues, Scope, work rules, etc. we are never able to get unified for a common cause.

Block representation would only make this diviseness that much greater.

Saabs

Obviously it's the BOD that sucks as they voted to put out the horrible jcba. But you can't ignore that APA contracts are largely inferior to that of alpa contracts.

I'll vote alpa any day of the week.

mainlineAF

Agreed. Whoever agreed to the ridiculously onerous MOU/JCBA process should never be allowed to represent us again.

And I second ALPA.

R57 relay

How so? Seems that reducing reps would ease that. If things are as bleak as you say, what's the answer? Doesn't seem like ALPA.

TonyC

If your complaint is about democratic representation in general, what makes representation by seniority block worse? Is it more democratic? More representative?

What is your experience with a Block Representation system?


If your airline is like a country made up of Wyoming, Texas, Alaska, and California, and you're one of the few citizens of Wyoming, which system of representation would best ensure that your voice is heard and your opinion matters? A "House of Representatives" system where you will be in a permanent minority and easily ignored, or a "Senate" system where the elected representatives have to work together, strive for compromise, and more fully explore solutions that will satisfy everyone?

You know what they say about power and corrupting. Concentrate voting power in a few Captain reps in a big base, and the potential for corruption increases. Spread the voting power evenly across the seniority spectrum, and you'll see a very dynamic change in the boardroom.






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Upsddown

Pick your point in time.

In 2006, was the APA contract worse than US ALPA? UAL ALPA? NWA ALPA? CAL ALPA? DAL ALPA?

Today how many ALPA carriers have worse contracts than the APA contract?

We are under this onerous contract for several reasons.

The pilots of LAA saw how bad contracts could get in BK when they went back and looked at what CAL and AWA had lived under for nearly a decade in the 90s. What US, UAL, NWA and to some degree DAL (pension termination)
came out of BK with in the early/mid 2000's.

As bad as it was coming out of BK it was the best contract any carrier's pilots ever got. So the pilots of LAA for all the shortcomings and facing a potential 1113 did fairly well. Remember the pilots of LAA were not "brought up" to the pay and pension of US. It was the other way around.

The pilots of LAA did it to avoid what all the other ALPA carriers endured during the 2000's. Was it a good contract. No. Better than what any other carrier came out of BK with, yes.

The AWA pilots voted it in for two reasons. Namely they felt it would be the impetus to finally get the Nicolau implemented. Secondly it was a very significant pay raise and pension increase. For these they were willing to gut their own work rules.

For the LUS pilots it was a chance to finally earn an acceptable pay rate after working nearly a decade at near regional pay rates.

APA was put in the untenable position of having three separate constituencies willing to accept a JCBA with many shortcomings because it offered some salvation to each group in their own way.

Parker and Kirby were very aware that "all" pilots would walk over one another to get to the pay rates he would offer.
They baited the hook and we helped set it.

The BOD put out the agreement but we as a group voted it in. You can come up with all the reasons why we had to vote for it, arbitration clause, etc. But the fact is had we voted it down we wouldn't be working under this agreement today. I for one voted against it for this very reason.

I see no evidence that ALPA did any better for its pilots coming out of BK.

So where did we fail? We failed when we, the pilots agreed to extend the contract a year and defer negotiations by two years. Under the APA BK agreement we would be in negotiations today.

It wasn't the BOD that ratified the unnecessary change in duration it was the membership. The membership is the final authority in APA or in ALPA. The only difference in the outcome if we were ALPA was having to print an extra letter (P) because the membership who ratified this inferior agreement would have been the same.

A330FoodCritic

I find that hard to believe, whatever helps u sleep.