100% agree if we do not put our individual differences aside and rally around a cause.

I've heard for years how dysfunctional APA is and that they can never agree on anything. Three national officers, 22 Board members and every committee chairman finally does (doesn't matter how long it took them to agree they all finally did) and the rank-and-file can't even support them.

All this showed me was it's not the institution of APA. It's not the APA leaders. It's the members of APA that are the failure.

 

You're confusing min calendar day and average calendar day. MIN calendar day would be huge for everyone, G4 FOs included. Take a 3 day, 2 duty period, Europe trip. 8 hrs block each way. That trip would pay 21 hours with a 5 hour MIN calendar day and 16 with average.

Most people don't understand the huge difference between the two. UA and DL have a 5:15 average calendar day, SWA has a 6 hr min calendar day.

Not really the point of what you were saying but needs to be understood by all.

 

When seniority is stripped from fellow pilots all the other variables fall in line. I don't follow the APA for that reason alone.

 

Never knew a representative body that didn't try to get the best seniority outcome they could for their own
pilots.

ALPA

UAL/Pan Am 747

SWAPA

SWA/Morris
SWA/Airtan

APA

AAL/Reno
AAL/TWA

Just to name a few

Even DAL/NWA and UAL/CAL tried to get the most advantageous agreement they could.

That's what union members pay their union for, to represent their interests not others.

 

Every pilot group wants their group to get a windfall from a merger. The LAA SLI committee was doing what their members wanted them to. Don't act all high and mighty.

 

Sure, blame it on the posts. It couldn't be that you still won't answer direct questions.


Have you ever operated under a Block Representative system?


Can you describe what a Block Representative system would look like, structurally, at your airline?



Maybe I can get you started on the second question. Currently, according to APC, AA has 11 Domiciles. According to Wikipedia, the APA Board of Directors consists of a Chairman and and Vice-Chairman from each of those 11 Domiciles, for a total of 22 members.

Now, I don't have access to specific numbers, but I'm guessing that not all domiciles are created equal. I would guess that DFW is probably the largest, and perhaps LGA and BOS are somewhat smaller. Given the ability to vote based on the number of members represented, that would mean the DFW Chairman has a lot more horsepower than the BOS Chairman. How am I doing so far?

You have access to better information regarding membership numbers, so you're really better equipped to describe this next step, but you haven't seemed willing to try, so I'll have to give it my best shot. APC also says AA currently has about 15,000 pilots. Under a Block Representative system, an important objective is to have each Block Representative represent roughly the same number of pilots. Since not all domiciles have the same number of pilots, not all domiciles would have the same number of representatives, and they wouldn't have the same exact number of pilots, but that objective guides the structure. Say for example you start by shooting for 1 Rep for every 1,000 pilots. A domicile with fewer than, say, 1,500 pilots would have 1 Rep, and those with more than 1,500 would have 1 Rep for every 1,000 pilots. A domicile with 800 pilots would have 1 Rep, and a domicile with 3,200 pilots would have 3, and a domicile with 5,800 pilots might have 6. With 11 domiciles there would be a minimum of 11 Block Reps, and the larger domiciles would have more than 1 Rep per domicile.


In domiciles with more than 1 Representatives, the pilots would be divided into seniority blocks. For example, with 2 Representatives, the blocks would be roughly half of the pilots, arranged in seniority order. One Representative would represent the top half of the seniority at that domicile, and the other the bottom half. Both Representatives would be voting members of the Board of Directors.

Also, in the case of the smaller domiciles, each domicile would be a Local Council. Each local council would have Chairman, Vice-Chairman, and Secretary-Treasurer, all elected by the entire membership of that domicile / local council. In the case of a local council with only one Block Representative, that Block Rep would be the Local Council Chairman and a member of the Board of Directors. The other two local council officers would be elected from the local council membership at large and would not be members of the Board of Directors.

If the Local Council is large enough for 2 Blocks and 2 Block Representatives, the members of the Local Council would vote to choose between those two Block Reps for the Local Council Chairman and Vice-Chairman positions, and elect a Secretary-Treasurer from the membership at large. Only the 2 Block Reps would be members of the Board of Directors.

And if the Local Council is large enough for 3 Blocks and 3 Block Representatives, the members of the Local Council would vote to choose among those 3 for all 3 Local Council officer positions, and all 3 would be members of the Board of Directors.

For larger domiciles, there might even be multiple local councils in the same domicile. For example, if there are 6,300 pilots in a domicile, there could be 6 Seniority Blocks of 1,050 pilots each, and 2 Local Councils. Numbering the Seniority Blocks from 1 to 6 from the most senior to the most junior, one Local Council might consist of Blocks 1, 3, and 6, and the other Local Council would consist of Blocks 2, 4, and 5. (Distributing seniority across both local Councils would make them as similar as possible in composition and result in more incentive to cooperate than to compete.) The pilots of Blocks 1, 3, and 6 would all vote for Block Representatives for all 3 of the Blocks, and then vote to choose among those 3 for the Local Council officer positions. All 3 of those Block Representatives would be members of the Board of Directors.


How would the Block Representatives be elected? First, only members of each Block would be eligible to serve as Block Representatives for that Block. However, all pilots in the Local Council would be eligible to vote for all the Representatives in that Local Council. In the example above, a Local Council consisting of Seniority Blocks 1, 3, and 6 would have Block Representatives from each of those seniority blocks, but all members of all 3 blocks would vote for all 3 Block Reps. Then, they would choose among those elected to fill the Local Council officer seats.

In smaller domiciles with 3 or fewer Representatives, there would still be a Local Council with Local Council officers, and all would be elected by all the pilots in that domicile. Only the Local Council officers who are also Block Representatives would be members of the Board of Directors.

The ultimate result may not be a smaller Board of Directors, but it would most certainly change the composition, and the biggest difference would be the cross-section of the membership represented by a voice at the table. Voices shape discussion and debates and lay the foundation for understanding, problem-solving, and compromise.




From comments I've seen above, I'm not sure many people understand what a Block Representation system is or how it works. That makes it pretty hard to form an informed opinion, don't
you think? I hope I've shed a little bit of light on it.

Of course, it wouldn't have to work exactly as I described above. There is very likely a better way to tailor it to the wants and needs of the pilots of APA. That's what a discussion thread is all about, right?



But could you start by answering those first 2 questions?






.

 

The AASLI committee tried to pull a TWA #2, didn't work out.

 

That isn't the meaning of unionism. I don't agree with them either. If that IS the (new) definition, then count me out. Every new hire should look out for themselves and forget honoring the "senior" guys seniority cause they won't honor it for them. The New APA.

 

1. No.

2. No. There are so many potential structural forms to the concept of block representation it would be an endless exchange. It could be as you describe or in many other forms. I do not advocate block representation so I have no concept of how it would work at my airline.

With your two questions answered let me ask you a few since you seem passionate that block representation is the solution to pilot's representative problems.

1. Where have you worked under a block representation system?

2. Given your belief that block representation is the answer to the problems faced at airline unions, of the unions representing major airlines which ones have block representation as a basis of their governance?

ALPA?
APA?
SWAPA?
IPA?
Teamsters?

3. If all of those listed above do not have a block representation structure as you describe why not?

R57 initially listed his question based on his concern for APA's dysfunction.

He questioned whether block
representation would reduce the number of BOD members.

By having block representation in a seniority form whether that would reduce disagreements and temper dysfunction.

And whether this structure would be able to be staffed with volunteers.

Assuming your proposal is from some previous exposure you've had with the governance of block representation proving it's validity I'll use it as the basis for this discussion (since you believe in it and I don't).

Questions addressed for R57.

Under your proposal APA would go from 22 board members to 20.

APA would have to add 13 additional positions to staff the local councils.

To R57's first question BOD members are not significantly reduced based on your description of how block representation should work. Based on that I don't see how this addresses R57's question of whether reducing players may reduce conflict.

Disagreements generally come from opposing views. In the airline industry pilots and their interests are generally split amongst senior, mid, and junior pilots.

Does block representation bring more opposing views based on parochial interest to the board room or more common interest? Does block representation appear to resolve the dysfunction R57 is trying to resolve or does it add even more divisiveness?

Can the additional 13 required staffing positions be staffed with volunteers or will APA's paid union leave and it's expenses rise significantly?

Based on past experience APA would likely see its expenses rise by several hundred thousand dollars. Volunteerism has been over taken (in many regards, granted not all) by PU (paid union leave).


So based on your description I don't see it addressing the problems R57 is
questioning.

For the record I 100% agree with the problems R57 highlights. I, and I believe every other airline labor union
disagrees with your proposal that block representation is the solution to the problems R57 raises.

 

Upsddown, I'll get back to you. Don't want to type a response with my thumb.