High Failure Rates - Atlas / Southern
05-14-2019, 06:53 AM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Position: 747 CA
Posts: 344
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
I keep hearing rumors about the Atlas 767 FO actions. I haven't seen the NTSB release anything yet. Are these just rumors or is there something more to the story?
But you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to put 2 and 2 together with what information is readily available. Those of us who fly for this dirt-bag outfit everyday have been warning people for several years now about the problems at Atlas. The real miracle is that we have not killed more people.
Caveat emptor!
05-14-2019, 06:55 AM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2014
Posts: 261
I know of at least 3 OE failures at Southern in the last 2 months. That’s all I know of from my limited POV. I have no idea of the number if you lump in GS & sims.
05-14-2019, 07:16 AM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Retired
Posts: 651
Originally Posted by Diesel8
Reverse your percentages and that is more of the true picture.
The issues that are going on are industry wide, not just at Atlas/Southern.
I was just on a Delta Airlines flight and on landing we were all over the place and had to do a go-around, "for traffic on the runway". Yeah right.
Those issues are a product of highly automated aircraft, where 8000 hours of experience means that there was only about 200 hours of actual stick time. Basic actual real "flying" skills versus "operating" an aircraft is the big issue. Those basic airmanship skills have eroded to a point that is horrifying at this point, mostly what I have seen is that they are completely non-existent. There is a lack of understanding of the basic concepts of anything that has to do with flying.
Fear - is if the "pilot" has to fly the aircraft with the autopilot off greater than 200' off the ground. I see too many people that if the autopilot would pack up it will be an emergency situation. VNAV is used in all situations as there is the fear that they will not be able to remember to slow down to 250 kts below 10,000'.
Sick and tired of hearing excuses that the airspace is too complex for hand flying. B*llsh*t! The airway structure has not changed from the days of flying the Classic out of VHHH with a FD, HSI, RMI, and the mighty Carousel IVA. The only thing that has changed is that the tolerances have tightened up. As long as your instrumentation is up to those tolerances you should have no problem. Nowadays you don't even have to tune a radio!
I will give this to you, there are some individuals out there that are either quite skilled, or have the attitude and aptitude to learn. They are in the minority.
What I will say is that majority of the newbies out there don't want to learn, are condescending, confrontational, and a trivializing lot. They don't have either the skills or that attitude/aptitude. The major issue with these types is this: THEY COMPROMISE SAFETY BY BEING A DISTRACTION.
I will always give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and a chance. What I will not do is coddle some idiotic, narcissistic clown, who needs to be the center of attention.
My responsibility is the safe operation of aircraft, period end of story. I endeavor to do the upmost to this goal. That means dealing with a crumbling maintenance infrastructure, clownage in the training department, a complete lack of morale, among other things, and yes, difficult, petulant children in the cockpit - oops "Flight Deck"
End rant.
Flame away, children.
The issues that are going on are industry wide, not just at Atlas/Southern.
I was just on a Delta Airlines flight and on landing we were all over the place and had to do a go-around, "for traffic on the runway". Yeah right.
Those issues are a product of highly automated aircraft, where 8000 hours of experience means that there was only about 200 hours of actual stick time. Basic actual real "flying" skills versus "operating" an aircraft is the big issue. Those basic airmanship skills have eroded to a point that is horrifying at this point, mostly what I have seen is that they are completely non-existent. There is a lack of understanding of the basic concepts of anything that has to do with flying.
Fear - is if the "pilot" has to fly the aircraft with the autopilot off greater than 200' off the ground. I see too many people that if the autopilot would pack up it will be an emergency situation. VNAV is used in all situations as there is the fear that they will not be able to remember to slow down to 250 kts below 10,000'.
Sick and tired of hearing excuses that the airspace is too complex for hand flying. B*llsh*t! The airway structure has not changed from the days of flying the Classic out of VHHH with a FD, HSI, RMI, and the mighty Carousel IVA. The only thing that has changed is that the tolerances have tightened up. As long as your instrumentation is up to those tolerances you should have no problem. Nowadays you don't even have to tune a radio!
I will give this to you, there are some individuals out there that are either quite skilled, or have the attitude and aptitude to learn. They are in the minority.
What I will say is that majority of the newbies out there don't want to learn, are condescending, confrontational, and a trivializing lot. They don't have either the skills or that attitude/aptitude. The major issue with these types is this: THEY COMPROMISE SAFETY BY BEING A DISTRACTION.
I will always give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and a chance. What I will not do is coddle some idiotic, narcissistic clown, who needs to be the center of attention.
My responsibility is the safe operation of aircraft, period end of story. I endeavor to do the upmost to this goal. That means dealing with a crumbling maintenance infrastructure, clownage in the training department, a complete lack of morale, among other things, and yes, difficult, petulant children in the cockpit - oops "Flight Deck"
End rant.
Flame away, children.
And it is not just here, friends at legacy airlines have the same concerns.
I would also add CRM to your list. A great idea that, like automation, has been taken too far. And a lot of it has been badly taught. "Arrogant, stupid Captain is trying to kill you" has been a theme, but I have never heard a word that I can recall about what to to when the FO is advocating and playing the CRM cards -- but is wrong.
Take a pilot puppy mill graduate who spent a lot of Daddy's money being told that training is all that matters, add over reaching CRM and it should not surprise anyone that a growing number of new pilots have little interest in learning from the experienced pilots. And I don't say Captains because the same dynamic is apparently playing out when the Captain is in the bunk and the new guy has an attitude with the more experienced FO that he is sitting next too.
And that ends my rant.
05-14-2019, 07:29 AM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Position: 747 CA
Posts: 344
Attitude and aptitude are everything IMHO.
I want to go on the record stating that there are some wonderful and sharp young pilots at Atlas. But, as stated above, the spectrum is all over the place.
We have a new hire who was described to me by a fellow captain as "the worst pilot he has ever seen." This particular aviator's reputation is quickly spreading throughout the organization. Captains are afraid to let this person touch the controls.
I flew with a new guy in the sim a while back who did the best steep turn I have ever seen. Some of these guys/gals are very savvy with technology and grasp things very quickly.
I want to go on the record stating that there are some wonderful and sharp young pilots at Atlas. But, as stated above, the spectrum is all over the place.
We have a new hire who was described to me by a fellow captain as "the worst pilot he has ever seen." This particular aviator's reputation is quickly spreading throughout the organization. Captains are afraid to let this person touch the controls.
I flew with a new guy in the sim a while back who did the best steep turn I have ever seen. Some of these guys/gals are very savvy with technology and grasp things very quickly.
05-14-2019, 08:40 AM
#77
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,026
I just received an email from airline pilot central entitled "747 FO Opportunity of a Lifetime."
Of curiosity, I followed to an ad for Atlas which states:
So, 1,500 hours. Apparently the 747 has now become entry level, on the same playing field as a Dash 8, Jetstream, or Brasillia.
Shiny jet syndrome on a fish hook.
Of curiosity, I followed to an ad for Atlas which states:
As one of the fastest growing airlines, Atlas Air needs your expertise. We have 747 First Officers openings through July 1, 2019. If you have over 1500 hours of flying time, our Flight Acquisition team would like to introduce you to the opportunity of a lifetime.
Shiny jet syndrome on a fish hook.
05-14-2019, 08:53 AM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Position: 747 CA
Posts: 344
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
I just received an email from airline pilot central entitled "747 FO Opportunity of a Lifetime."
Of curiosity, I followed to an ad for Atlas which states:
So, 1,500 hours. Apparently the 747 has now become entry level, on the same playing field as a Dash 8, Jetstream, or Brasillia.
Shiny jet syndrome on a fish hook.
Of curiosity, I followed to an ad for Atlas which states:
So, 1,500 hours. Apparently the 747 has now become entry level, on the same playing field as a Dash 8, Jetstream, or Brasillia.
Shiny jet syndrome on a fish hook.
Our competition saw their value as BF and JD did not...
05-14-2019, 09:57 AM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,912
Originally Posted by Diesel8
Reverse your percentages and that is more of the true picture.
The issues that are going on are industry wide, not just at Atlas/Southern.
I was just on a Delta Airlines flight and on landing we were all over the place and had to do a go-around, "for traffic on the runway". Yeah right. How sad... and frightening.
Fear - is if the "pilot" has to fly the aircraft with the autopilot off greater than 200' off the ground. I see too many people that if the autopilot would pack up it will be an emergency situation. VNAV is used in all situations as there is the fear that they will not be able to remember to slow down to 250 kts below 10,000'.
Sick and tired of hearing excuses that the airspace is too complex for hand flying. B*llsh*t! The airway structure has not changed from the days of flying the Classic out of VHHH with a FD, HSI, RMI, and the mighty Carousel IVA. The only thing that has changed is that the tolerances have tightened up. As long as your instrumentation is up to those tolerances you should have no problem. Nowadays you don't even have to tune a radio!
My responsibility is the safe operation of aircraft, period end of story. I endeavor to do the upmost to this goal. That means dealing with a crumbling maintenance infrastructure, clownage in the training department, a complete lack of morale, among other things, and yes, difficult, petulant children in the cockpit - oops "Flight Deck"
End rant.
Flame away, children.
The issues that are going on are industry wide, not just at Atlas/Southern.
I was just on a Delta Airlines flight and on landing we were all over the place and had to do a go-around, "for traffic on the runway". Yeah right. How sad... and frightening.
Fear - is if the "pilot" has to fly the aircraft with the autopilot off greater than 200' off the ground. I see too many people that if the autopilot would pack up it will be an emergency situation. VNAV is used in all situations as there is the fear that they will not be able to remember to slow down to 250 kts below 10,000'.
Sick and tired of hearing excuses that the airspace is too complex for hand flying. B*llsh*t! The airway structure has not changed from the days of flying the Classic out of VHHH with a FD, HSI, RMI, and the mighty Carousel IVA. The only thing that has changed is that the tolerances have tightened up. As long as your instrumentation is up to those tolerances you should have no problem. Nowadays you don't even have to tune a radio!
My responsibility is the safe operation of aircraft, period end of story. I endeavor to do the upmost to this goal. That means dealing with a crumbling maintenance infrastructure, clownage in the training department, a complete lack of morale, among other things, and yes, difficult, petulant children in the cockpit - oops "Flight Deck"
End rant.
Flame away, children.
Last edited by captjns; 05-14-2019 at 10:22 AM.
05-14-2019, 10:15 AM
#80
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,471
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
I just received an email from airline pilot central entitled "747 FO Opportunity of a Lifetime."
Of curiosity, I followed to an ad for Atlas which states:
So, 1,500 hours. Apparently the 747 has now become entry level, on the same playing field as a Dash 8, Jetstream, or Brasillia.
Shiny jet syndrome on a fish hook.
Of curiosity, I followed to an ad for Atlas which states:
So, 1,500 hours. Apparently the 747 has now become entry level, on the same playing field as a Dash 8, Jetstream, or Brasillia.
Shiny jet syndrome on a fish hook.
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