4runner

TOGA wasn’t active in the phase of flight the aircraft was in.

lgaflyer

if it was unintentional, then was it from the CA who came back from the flap handle or from the FO who went back from the speedbrake? This may allow manufacturer to design the handle/switches better. Just like flap/slat handles used to be separate until too many people mistook the slat handle for flap and retract the slats instead of flaps, so now they are one handle.

CVR/FDR wont tell u their thought process any more than video can. Nothing is going to tell you what their thought process is unless you go ask them directly. Are you also saying we should get rid of CVR/FDR?

i have seen plenty of intentional activation of TOGA (like go around) without the required callout even when they are supposed to call it out. No one does a real-life GA as perfectly as they do in the sim. It is because they are not prepared/expecting it.

If someone intentionally push TOGA, a video will show just that. Then we can go look at why he intentionally pushed it. But now, that is sidelined because it is believed that it was unintentional.

Adlerdriver

Clearly you haven’t read the report.
If your statement was true, it’s very likely that we would not even be discussing this and there would be one more 767 still flying. Go-around arms when the flaps are out of up or glide slope is captured. The first officer had called for and the captain moved the flaps from up to 1 about 10 seconds before this event began.

Adlerdriver

I asked you to explain this already but you didn’t answer and now you’re saying it again. Please tell us how a video of the go-around button being pushed is going to prove that it was an intentional act.
Then you’re going to try to determine why he did that? Please explain that too. Considering the evidence available, how on earth would you determine why he did something that makes absolutely no sense in that particular phase of flight. Other than conclude that he was incompetent which is already been determined since he managed to put his aircraft in an unrecoverable attitude over the next 20 to 30 seconds.
And just to keep us in something close to reality, not enough people died in this accident for anyone to consider re-configuring a 40-year old aircraft throttle design.

Globemaster2827

There's so many things wrong with this one...

The investigation found no evidence of any malfunction. The investigation found one of the two hit the TOGA switch. I've never seen nor heard of it just activating without being hit. I have over 3000 hours in Boeing including PIC. I've got over 8000 hours in MD and Boeing and have never seen nor heard of it self activating.

There's no logic to intentionally hitting it in that spot and if it were intentionally hit then why did the PF think it was a stall? Wouldn't he have known the jet was simply in TOGA? The investigators clearly agree with me.

It could've been either one who hit it but someone hit the TOGA switch on accident which is a very simple problem to rectify. Click it off, level the jet, pull the throttles back, and ask the PM to re-automate.

As for comparing this to an engine shut down... Are you being serious? I just gave you the remedy for inadvertently hitting the switch. What's the remedy for shutting down the wrong engine on a 2 engine jet? Now you have a catastrophically failed engine and the other one is shut down. You're a glider at that point. Making that kind of a comparison would lead me to believe that you have very little common sense, time or both.

You comment about stalling... There was no stall. If he misidentified a stall and went to 50 degrees nose down that's incompetence. If you're asking me about what's worse... Getting into a stall or botching the recovery? Both are bad but we do stall recovery training for a reason and none of it involves 50 degrees nose down and recovering at Bug speed plus 200 knots. You'd be busted first time on a check ride for that.

Globemaster2827

How about the fact that it was in TOGA and the PF was screaming about his airspeed that was rapidly accelerating and that he was in a stall... If it was intentional he should've noticed he was in TOGA. He'd have known why he was accelerating and the nose was pitching up. The confusion was the reason that we know it was unintentional.

Ave8tor218

Yes it was...they had just gone to Flaps 1 which is when goes activate

EZdoesit

But the investigators know they were moved/pushed correct, so you have the data point should you need it to train crews differently? Tell you what, NTSB and management puts recorded cameras with audio up close and personal 24/7 and I'll put one in my office too.

lgaflyer

Do you not know what an unintentional push and an intentional push of TOGA look like? While don't you try to film yourself doing both next time in the sim and look at the difference.

And you are right, not enough people died in this accident. Unlike the 2 MAX crashes, enough people died for them to dig deep enough to reveal a design flaw, a cover-up at the organizational level and lying to FAA rather than simply chalk it to "incompetent 3rd world pilots". I guess it was good that those 2 MAX were pax bird and not freighters.

rickair7777

The guy had literally made a career out of hiding his incompetence. Absent any other evidence, no need to try to make the scenario fit something more sinister. Occam's razor. There's even precedent for this: colgan.