Atlas Air Hiring
03-30-2016, 11:54 AM
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Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 787
After a few inquiries, I'm going to infer that it's because of the insane backup of IOE. I know someone from a Nov 747 class who still hasn't even touched the airplane yet... 3 classes, ~30 guys each, 3 months wait for IOE. That's $400,000 that Atlas is shelling out for guys to just sit at home. I'm sure there's more.
As for the rumors of furlough, I'm willing to bet it's just a threat against the union.
As for the rumors of furlough, I'm willing to bet it's just a threat against the union.
Last edited by sandrich; 03-30-2016 at 12:04 PM.
03-30-2016, 01:37 PM
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Joined APC: May 2010
Position: B767 CA
Posts: 1,100
Originally Posted by longhauler
I was a --- 2015 hire on the 747. At the time, Atlas was a very interesting choice--I was fresh out of the Air Force (---- hours in Military Aircraft), Atlas picked me up with a pending contract negotiation that they were claiming would rival American's, upgrade in 5 years or less and the 747. What's not to love? I drank the Kool Aid and was all about Atlas--so much so that I delayed my availability at United and Delta by about 5 years. That is, I kept my UAL and DAL apps in the airlineapps system, but put 2019 or so in the "availability box." I wanted to give Atlas a fair shake, and see if the management was going to be true to their word about negotiations that December.
Fast forward to late October 2015. I had busted my 74 type ride in June, but other than that had an uneventful first 6 months at Atlas. Halfway through a trip in October, United sent me an email indicating that while they knew my availability was in 2019, they were interested in interviewing me at the earliest opportunity whenever I was within 6 months of availability. All I had to do was send the email. Keep in mind I had my apps in with United for well over a year at this point, and the ONLY change I made to them was adding my employment at Atlas and checking the part 121 box on the airline apps website. I even added the 747 bust, and that didn't deter them. Ironically, the day after I received the email from United, I received an email from the ExCo outlining the beginning of the terrible pace at which the company has been conduction negotiations since late last year, and continue to do so. That made a tough decision easy, and I interviewed at United in December of 2015 and accepted conditional employment a week later. I could have started in January of 2016, but delayed my class date till 5 April so I could get married and go through training with no interruptions.
I put my 2 weeks notice in with ANC ACP on - ----- 2016, and received no response. I then sent the same email to System CP on the 8th, with a final employment date of -- ----- 16. He called me within 5 minutes of me sending the email, and we had a conversation that lasted about 10 minutes. The synopsis follows, keep in mind it's been a couple weeks and I don't remember everything verbatim, but can recall the general tone:
Overall, Mr. System CP was friendly, but businesslike. He asked me why I was leaving. I responded that Atlas pay and benefits was substandard, my quality of life was suffering, and I wanted to actually have a retirement in 35 years when I retired. I said I was young and had a new family to watch out for, and Atlas simply wasn't a good fit anymore. I concluded with "Also, I have no faith that Atlas management will conduct contract negotiations in good faith, additionally I don't see a new contract happening under any circumstances any time soon." His response came in 2 parts, first he said he understood why I'm leaving, and that he did the same thing when he went to Northwest back in the 80's. He also mentioned the contract, and tried to twist the negotiation SNAFU into being the union's fault. He indicated that he hadn't seen a union this aggressive and "chest-thumping" since the 80's, and that the union will have to start playing more fairly if they wanted to get something meaningful done. I didn't see any point in arguing with him, so I just listened. I then told him that he might want to be careful about his pilot numbers, and relayed my UAL hiring story above, indicating that the major's are headhunting even guys like me with low hours and a busted type on their record. He didn't really have a substantial response to this. He then reminded me that UAL could easily furlough me if the economy has a downturn because their pilot numbers are so large, while Atlas most likely wouldn't. I responded that yes, this was a risk, and a reason why Atlas was so attractive to me was the business model was more recession-proof than a normal airline, however this was a risk I was willing to take based on the potential gain of long-term employment at United Airlines. He ended the conversation on some notes about my last few days at Atlas (I had called in sick and then taken vacation for my wedding), and we wrapped the call up.
Edited for names and dates
Fast forward to late October 2015. I had busted my 74 type ride in June, but other than that had an uneventful first 6 months at Atlas. Halfway through a trip in October, United sent me an email indicating that while they knew my availability was in 2019, they were interested in interviewing me at the earliest opportunity whenever I was within 6 months of availability. All I had to do was send the email. Keep in mind I had my apps in with United for well over a year at this point, and the ONLY change I made to them was adding my employment at Atlas and checking the part 121 box on the airline apps website. I even added the 747 bust, and that didn't deter them. Ironically, the day after I received the email from United, I received an email from the ExCo outlining the beginning of the terrible pace at which the company has been conduction negotiations since late last year, and continue to do so. That made a tough decision easy, and I interviewed at United in December of 2015 and accepted conditional employment a week later. I could have started in January of 2016, but delayed my class date till 5 April so I could get married and go through training with no interruptions.
I put my 2 weeks notice in with ANC ACP on - ----- 2016, and received no response. I then sent the same email to System CP on the 8th, with a final employment date of -- ----- 16. He called me within 5 minutes of me sending the email, and we had a conversation that lasted about 10 minutes. The synopsis follows, keep in mind it's been a couple weeks and I don't remember everything verbatim, but can recall the general tone:
Overall, Mr. System CP was friendly, but businesslike. He asked me why I was leaving. I responded that Atlas pay and benefits was substandard, my quality of life was suffering, and I wanted to actually have a retirement in 35 years when I retired. I said I was young and had a new family to watch out for, and Atlas simply wasn't a good fit anymore. I concluded with "Also, I have no faith that Atlas management will conduct contract negotiations in good faith, additionally I don't see a new contract happening under any circumstances any time soon." His response came in 2 parts, first he said he understood why I'm leaving, and that he did the same thing when he went to Northwest back in the 80's. He also mentioned the contract, and tried to twist the negotiation SNAFU into being the union's fault. He indicated that he hadn't seen a union this aggressive and "chest-thumping" since the 80's, and that the union will have to start playing more fairly if they wanted to get something meaningful done. I didn't see any point in arguing with him, so I just listened. I then told him that he might want to be careful about his pilot numbers, and relayed my UAL hiring story above, indicating that the major's are headhunting even guys like me with low hours and a busted type on their record. He didn't really have a substantial response to this. He then reminded me that UAL could easily furlough me if the economy has a downturn because their pilot numbers are so large, while Atlas most likely wouldn't. I responded that yes, this was a risk, and a reason why Atlas was so attractive to me was the business model was more recession-proof than a normal airline, however this was a risk I was willing to take based on the potential gain of long-term employment at United Airlines. He ended the conversation on some notes about my last few days at Atlas (I had called in sick and then taken vacation for my wedding), and we wrapped the call up.
Edited for names and dates
However, our CBA and more importantly (as longhauler rightly pointed out to RD, System Chief Pilot) our management is NOT going to come to the table to negotiate anything of substance that puts us in the same league as what the majors had even ten years ago.
Therefore, longhauler, your decision is spot on and you and your young family deserve to be appreciated and be secure in your future.
All the best to you...thanks for paying it forward by telling RD your thoughts.
03-30-2016, 02:18 PM
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Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: just a co-pilot
Posts: 194
Originally Posted by sandrich
After a few inquiries, I'm going to infer that it's because of the insane backup of IOE. I know someone from a Nov 747 class who still hasn't even touched the airplane yet... 3 classes, ~30 guys each, 3 months wait for IOE. That's $400,000 that Atlas is shelling out for guys to just sit at home. I'm sure there's more.
As for the rumors of furlough, I'm willing to bet it's just a threat against the union.
As for the rumors of furlough, I'm willing to bet it's just a threat against the union.
03-30-2016, 02:29 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 177
Originally Posted by seoceancrosser
I'm willing to bet they won't be hiring the 700-800 pilots since Amazon chose to go with ATSG instead of AAWW. As any outsider looking in can see that the pilot workforce at Atlas is not a stable or reliable one. Making us more like Southern won't accomplish that goal either. Any other potential customer looking for large regular lift will see the same thing. It looks like Atlas management has made the decision to focus their resources on arguing with us as opposed obtaining new business. My opinion from where I sit.
03-30-2016, 02:36 PM
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Joined APC: Jul 2012
Position: MD-11
Posts: 245
Originally Posted by 744driver
Below is my opinion only...
Some of the Sim Check Airmen, DEs, and even instructors are company hacks...they feel that they are doing god's work (meaning the Atlas god!!) by sending guys to the line that are "worthy" of flying our 747s. (Are you freaking kidding me?)
They make up their own ****** in checkrides and until recently there was nobody to push back. I'd like to think the new head of our TC is cleaning house of that mentality. It seems to be going in the right direction.
But the disparity between training events and checking events is very real. And therein is the problem if a trainee (even highly experienced line pilots) cannot handle the curve balls that will surely be hurled at him/her in the 747 program.
Good luck to those making their way through the 747 program...it is NOT easy, and made complicated by the multiple instructor changes, and the resultant differences or gaps in the program.
Some of the Sim Check Airmen, DEs, and even instructors are company hacks...they feel that they are doing god's work (meaning the Atlas god!!) by sending guys to the line that are "worthy" of flying our 747s. (Are you freaking kidding me?)
They make up their own ****** in checkrides and until recently there was nobody to push back. I'd like to think the new head of our TC is cleaning house of that mentality. It seems to be going in the right direction.
But the disparity between training events and checking events is very real. And therein is the problem if a trainee (even highly experienced line pilots) cannot handle the curve balls that will surely be hurled at him/her in the 747 program.
Good luck to those making their way through the 747 program...it is NOT easy, and made complicated by the multiple instructor changes, and the resultant differences or gaps in the program.
I expected the same thing on my first PC. I studied all my type ride notes and re-read FCOM vol 1 and vol 2. However I was surprised to find out I had waaaaaay over prepared. PC#2 was much of the same. I re-read Vol 1 since it was a new release and was still over prepared. PC#3 was the same again. I found that the check airmen I had were big picture and good instructors. I learned quite a bit and felt it was a fair assessment. With each PC I wrote down what I learned and what I screwed up. I review that before the next one and it usually goes well. Maybe I was just lucky, but all 3 of my PCs have been fair, balanced, and educational. Of course there's the typical bit of nervousness as with any PC, but I can say each check airman was great.
I am disappointed the initial type ride instruction hasn't progressed to a big picture viewpoint. Realistically the only thing this plane has to do is takeoff and land. It's not cosmic. Follow the FCOM VOL 1 and QRC if needed. Realistically the most difficult part of a typical day is deciding where to get dinner.
03-30-2016, 03:18 PM
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Joined APC: May 2010
Position: B767 CA
Posts: 1,100
Good stuff, KYTBRD...I have notes from my initial training as an Atlas FE, 747 Classic FO, 744 FO, and 767 CA...and ALL training and checking events. And that is indeed a great source of information and guidance for the next event.
However, as you rightly pointed out, it is the newbie that may not know what to study, what will be asked of him/her in the Oral Exam (the type ride is mostly canned and one is fairly well prepared for it since you've rehearsed it for 8-10 simulator sessions), etc.
I still feel the Atlas program on the 747 is harder than it needs to be -- but not because it is some magic jet that only superhumans can fly, but rather because of the inconsistency of the examiners that don't follow PTS, their own question bank that is ostensibly there for the Orals, and in some cases their own egos!!
Your class seems to have figured it out, and had great success...and you my friend (and I know you) are an over-achiever so there is never a doubt about your performance!!
However, as you rightly pointed out, it is the newbie that may not know what to study, what will be asked of him/her in the Oral Exam (the type ride is mostly canned and one is fairly well prepared for it since you've rehearsed it for 8-10 simulator sessions), etc.
I still feel the Atlas program on the 747 is harder than it needs to be -- but not because it is some magic jet that only superhumans can fly, but rather because of the inconsistency of the examiners that don't follow PTS, their own question bank that is ostensibly there for the Orals, and in some cases their own egos!!
Your class seems to have figured it out, and had great success...and you my friend (and I know you) are an over-achiever so there is never a doubt about your performance!!
03-30-2016, 05:58 PM
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Joined APC: Sep 2014
Position: Atlas 767 Captain
Posts: 61
Originally Posted by FordHarrison
Atlas is re-evaluting their hiring metrics and will be making adjustments to ensure a steady supply of pilots that are looking to make a career at Atlas.
03-30-2016, 06:01 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2015
Posts: 177
Originally Posted by Sailfish234
This from a union busting law firm. Guess youre making your thousand plus dollars an hour...play your stupid ass games. We have strength and unity, you wont break that.��������������������
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