No, they are not.

But those benefiting (neg. committee, ExCo, ExCo chair and the company) by not having anything compelling them to finish seems to be his point. We seem to be holding a pair of deuces and throwing in money to the pot like we have a full house. Essentially hoping no one will take a job at Atlas and encouraging those here to leave as our sole leverage.

Polar did two strikes in the past that only brought them to parity with the one Atlas contract that was concluded prior to our merger. Kirchner's own words if you want to go back an listen to the recording of the call on the union site. Polar hung their hat on one issue that dragged out the merger and a new contract for almost ten years for the Atlas guys. Required a decertification of ALPA to get it done and moving on.

HERE IS A PDF of the latest LM-2.

You can use ctrl F, insert your company name to find what the union pays your company for flight pay loss, names of the legal staff to see what they were paid, individuals, etc. Atlas spent about 1.1 million in 2016 on FPL alone. This year it was 1.272 million even after a credit of 200 hrs a month to us for negotiations by the company under the framework agreement. The above LM-2 is for 1224 2017 in whole so you can find Southern stuff there also. I thought the FPL amendment would slow the spending down so they could keep up appearances to the membership, but it looks like they are grabbing what they can before the amendment is finalized into the bylaws and they go out the door. I.E. Kirchner leaves soon due to retirement (although he was approved by the eboard to finish his term despite his mandatory retirement).

So I can see his despair and have experienced it before myself. Maybe if our newer representatives reviewed what actually happened in the past (not the rewritten stuff by Kirchner) we might get ahead of the game some. Unfortunately, we seem destined to repeat history.

 

Nope, they’re the complete opposite of free. Thus, no incentive for them to end anytime soon.. $$$

 

An "Industry Leading Contract" is a pipe dream and it will never happen. Atlas is and always will be a third tier airline. The Union and the company are stealing money from me, in dues and old contract pay scale, every month this drags on.
I am also tired of buying pizza and beer for every new hire class.

BayBum

 

There are more and more people thinking like this among the ranks, BayBum. Every other union not named Teamsters has signed better contracts than we will in the past several years. Imagine paying dues to the Teamsters for well over a decade like myself only to see the same simple tactics fail over and over? It's frustrasting no doubt. One good thing is they arent spending too much on pizza and beer since not many are showing up!

 

You are right that there are fewer showing for new hire classes, but those pizza parties are more for selling the ExCo to those new members for votes later on. At least until they see those early grandiose promises of "industry leading contract" don't come true. I'm sure they will have a scapegoat for that. I can think of several they already have used.

Kirchner is on his way out as far as being the ExCo Chairman long before this contract will reach it's conclusion in the years of upcoming legal action and arbitration's that follow using delay as a point of leverage hoping more quit than hire on to stay as leverage under his direction. I imagine he will attempt a run at 1224 President. That doesn't require class and craft as the ExCo position does or maybe hired as a business agent by the Eboard. Keeps him in the money, our dues money.

I don't really blame the Teamsters. ALPA was worse on the back stabbing, support wise. We just had a large expansion and influx of new guys in the majority that didn't know our history, voted for guys they didn't know that oversold themselves that didn't know any of our history here either to keep from repeating the mistakes of the past. Those elected could make a good sales pitch for themselves and a few had access to the new members personal data even before the Teamsters got it. That was before the Houtas pizza parties though. Someone else ran them then and is on the ExCo now. Unfortunately, that kind of sneaky doesn't work on a corporate level. Just screws the collective membership in the end.

 

This really bums me out. The union has made a lot of mistakes it’s true. As individuals we can be a lot nastier to each other than is warranted, and we only divide ourselves further. For what it’s worth, all the dumb stuff you see, be it gossip circles, veiled threats, leaking of private information in training or anything is NOT your union in action. Nobody who has been on any kind of team thinks being crappy to each other improves performance over the long run. I can think of a good many times I’ve seen this type of thing really harm an effort. Mistakes have been made.

The good news is that we are fixing this. Please don’t let loud jerks turn you off your union. We’re only going to be strong if we stick together. Sometimes we lose sight of that. If someone doesn’t wanna hear what you have to say, talk to someone else. We exist for you, not the other way around.

 

I can see how we got here along with many others. A large amount of members and I would prefer to work this differently, but this administration has done it's best to kill that into repeating past mistakes again that could be easily circumvented with a little knowledge of history and less of arrogance. Much like how we got rid of AACS in STN. Work the real pressure points vs acting like berserker idiots.

Just on the membership side:

1. Creating an off union facebook site for members that denies access to many of the membership and only allows certain posts while being represented as the official union access point. Then later that being changed when they saw the liability to the local.
2. Cutting off membership posting access to the original private union web forums. It actually acted like a true thermometer of the memberships desires and wants and helped keep our issues off sites like this.
3. Leadership/ExCo Chair directing it's committees to attack members seen as supporting/voting for a properly proposed amendment that passed the whole of 1224.
4. Filing charges on many members seen as being associated to that bylaw amendment in which "everyone one of them were exonerated" of the charges.

I could go on, but why? They have proven what they are.



We are not a union anymore under Kirchner, but a wanna be gang led from behind by leadership that goads our members into crossing a line they know we can't get them back from when the section 19's hit. Multiple examples already exist. Get the members worked up and use the one's that crossed the unmentioned line by our ExCo/Company as martyrs.


There is a difference between being a thug and being a union. At least our thugs pay themselves well, I'm sad to say.

 

I'm not letting anyone turn me off, I'm only looking at results, and there have been none from the Teamsters. AAWW results have been decent and repetitive over years. There comes a point, however, where AAWW cant keep pilots because of their abusive tactics AND because of the Teamsters' tactics also (basically long-term ineffectiveness). This is happening now as more and more pilots are losing faith in both organizations. I'll keep fighting until I finally leave both AAWW and the Teamsters to greener pastures.

 

Jack, you clearly have been critical of me for being critical of the union...but this post seems to give the impression that you agree that the union is in no hurry settle while the money is pouring in.....is that your position? If so, why have you been so critical of me for the exact same position if you acknowledge the very reason I have been so vocal about our predicament?



(This is an honest attempt to engage in dialogue and no offense or sarcasm intended or implied).

 

Dave... To give you an idea about why just about everyone is arguing with you and treating you like a troll, let me ask you this question. From your extensive knowledge of negotiations what offer is "the union" refusing to settle? Just what do you think "the union" could agree to today that the company would offer?

My personal opinion from talking to those in the room is that we could agree to an Amalgamation with Southern's work rules (28 hour work days, No business class international, no vacation, no rig.. etc) and average our work rules with Southern's. That'd mean an extra day or two of work away from home for you. It'd mean current book retirement. It'd mean a 5 year deal. It'd mean current book SCOPE... At best. It'd mean Kalitta rates. Less for a 767 Captain. Is that really what you want?

Furthermore... You pay them dues as you complain about. Leadership would be very receptive to your phone call and keep you directly updated if you cared to ask BK, CK or YP what the exact offer is that they're rejecting. Have you ever called them to ask? (Hint... I know the answer to the question...) PM me if you need phone numbers or you can get them off the 1224 website.

Now ask yourself this... Is BF gonna be taking your call to listen to your concerns?

Also... Stop with the conspiracy theories about "The money pouring in"... We're fighting for an "Industry Standard (or Leading) Contract". Every one of our EXCO would be making more money in that scenario and would work far less...

...Just trying to get you on our team.