WalkOfShame

1) Look at it this way, if your going to log it in the student's logbook ie: ground, flight, and sim instruction 61.1(16), have your CFI cert on you.

2) The FAA does define training in 61.1(16). If you are giving your student instruction towards a certificate, rating, currency, or endorement, you are providing instruction. If you are flying with someone for fun where the above instruction is not involved (or not being logged) then you don't need you CFI cert with you.

3)Yep... Look at 61.89: "A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft:
1) That is carrying a passanger;
2)That is carrying property for compensation or hire;"
etc... you have your CFI cert and don't know this?

If you are not giving instruction to your student and just "along for the ride", then you would be a passenger. If you are giving instruction, than it is not a solo flight. Pretty simple.

4) As far as the seat, it doesn't really matter which seat you or your student sits in. Just like in a tandom seated aircraft, the seat your student sits in is the one that is used while flying solo.

jedinein

The Feds twisted that one back in 2003, where a flight review or an instrument proficiency check is considered to be "for a certificate or rating." Thus, to do a flight review in a multiengine aircraft, one needs the MEI and 5 hours in type. For the instrument proficiency check, an AGI/IGI for the simulator stuff (approach with OEI), and CFII with appropriate ratings on CP/ATP cert, and 5 hours in type for the flying stuff (approach to circle-to-land to full stop landing).

I didn't force the 5 hours make & model argument. I was just happy to get the Inspector out of my hair, even if he would have been laughed out of the NTSB appeals court. I didn't have $40,000 to fight a violation, even with three aviation lawyers offering to do it pro bono, just on principle.

Thus I learned to remain clear of grey areas, only treading in when absolutely needed.

INTERNET PILOT

Here is 61.1(16):

(16) Training time means training received--
(i) In flight from an authorized instructor;
(ii) On the ground from an authorized instructor; or
(iii) In a flight simulator or flight training device from an authorized instructor.

It's defining training time, not training flights. Even if the FAA made it clear that any flight that results in training time is "training flight", it still wouldn't make sense. This definition is only dependent on factors that happen after the flight. In other words, the flight becomes a "training flight" only after it's logged into a student's logbook and presented to the FAA as training time in an 8710 form.

While you're actually doing the flight, nothing has been logged yet. Even after you land and shut the plane down the flight hasn't been logged yet. Theres no way to say you did an instruction flight without your CFI certificate with you until you actually make it an official instruction flight by the act of logging it. By that time, it's impossible to determine whether or not the CFI had his certificate with him.

It may not be what the FAA intended, but thats how it's written.

No one said anything about being PIC. I was responding to a poster who said it's illegal for a student pilot to fly with someone who is not a CFI. Thats absolutly bogus. "Flying with" does not imply acting as PIC. A student can't be PIC no matter what anyways. The point I was making is that a CFI is never someone that is required for a flight to be conducted legally in an operational sense. There are times when a pilot with an instructor certificate is required to be on board in order to log the flight as a certain type of training, but one is never required for the actual flight.

This is what is required for a flight to be legal:

1. Airworthy certificate (to prove the airplane is airworthy)
2. Registration certificate (to prove the plane is appropriately registered)
3. An approved aircraft flight manual (for informational purposes)
4. A medical certificate and a pilot certificate. (To prove that there is a person on board that qualifies to act as PIC.)

As long as those 4 things are present (there may be a few more that I'm missing), then the flight is legal. A CFI is never required. The only person that is ever actually required to be onboard the plane is a appropriately rated pilot to act as PIC (or any required crew menber). There are no regulations that require a person to have a flight instructor certificate in order to act as PIC.

No it's not simple. The FAA has never defined the difference between "along for the ride" and "giving instruction". There are many times when it's ambigious as to whether you're "along for the ride" or you're there to give instruction.

floridaCFII

Sounds like you had a bad experience with a bad FSDO inspector. Do you have a link to a written opinion by the FAA that supports this? Because what you're saying is the complete opposite of what the regs say.

rickair7777

There is nothing seat specific, I was just describing the normal location for a CFI.

I don't have the regs handy, but Part 61 clearly spells out the privileges for each grade of pilot cert, including student pilot. A student pilot may NOT carry ANY passenger while acting as PIC.

If another rated pilot is onboard, that other pilot must be the PIC, whether he is a CFI or not. The student pilot could fly the airplane with a non-CFI pilot onboard, but the student is not the PIC...the other guy is responsible for the flight. In that case, the student is not "carrying passengers", he is "going for an airplane ride"...ie no loggable FAA flight time.

Only exception is for a DPE conducting a checkride...they usually prefer to not be the PIC.

Zach

Jesus, it says right on the student pilot certificate that they are not to carry passengers acting as PIC.

jedinein

No comment on the FSDO Inspector.

And, not quite on the opposite side. There's a link to the written stuff around here somewhere, if I find it again, I'll post it. Otherwise I'll get it up on my site then post the link.

NoyGonnaDoIt

What do you call it when a person starts a very esoteric thread (how many angels need to dance on the head of a pin before it becomes 'flight instruction'?) with, "the part I don't understand is..." and then argues with everyone who attempts to explain it?

WalkOfShame

It looks like you've answered all your questions yourself. Yes the FAA can't technically prove you did "training" if there is no record (logbook or otherwise). Just make sure you follow the FAR's and pay pro-rata share.

To put it to you this simply: Do what ever you want, it's not my CFI cert.

INTERNET PILOT

Theoretical situation: You're in a plane with another person holding short of the runway ready for takeoff. An FAA inspector stops you to ramp check you for whatever reason. He asks you for your certificates which are required such as airworthiness, aircraft registration, etc. You show him all those documents. Then he asks you "is this an instructional flight. Because if it is, then you must show me your CFI certificate.". You reply, "No sir this is not an instructional flight. In order for a flight to be "instructional" according to the definition of "instructional time" as laid out in 61.1(16) the flight needs to be logged as official dual given/recieved. This flight has not been logged as anything yet, so as of right now this is not an instructional flight and I am not exercising any privileges pf my CFI certificate."

Is there anything wrong with this scenerio? Is there anything in the regs that would make thew pilot in this scenerio wrong? What could the FAA inspector do?

People in this thread seem to think "who cares just always have your certificate with you at all times" is the only amount of understanding required if you hold a CFI certificate and regularily fly with students. I disagree. I think it's important that you understand EXCATLY where each regulation begins and where exactly they end. Especially if you are going to be teaching this stuff.