F/Os as 121 sim check airmen?
#21
At my airline we do have F/O sim check airmen as you call them. To be one you have to go thru the Captains course all the way thru IOE and the Final line check and activated. You are then required to pass a line check in the left seat every year and CQ check ride in the sim as a Captain. They are restricted by The company to only do CMV 1&2 currently but are signed by the FAA to do CLOE's also. They fly the line as FOs but can fly in the left seat if flying with another dual seat qualified pilot usually a LCA. They cannot make a Captain that requies a different FAA sign off.
#22
At my airline we do have F/O sim check airmen as you call them. To be one you have to go thru the Captains course all the way thru IOE and the Final line check and activated. You are then required to pass a line check in the left seat every year and CQ check ride in the sim as a Captain. They are restricted by The company to only do CMV 1&2 currently but are signed by the FAA to do CLOE's also. They fly the line as FOs but can fly in the left seat if flying with another dual seat qualified pilot usually a LCA. They cannot make a Captain that requies a different FAA sign off.
#24
Originally Posted by Phantom Flyer View Post
I won't claim to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination and I've seen some strange things in aviation but in my 18+ years in a major airline 121 training environment, I've never heard of a First Officer giving PC's, recurrent and Captain upgrades.
United used Pilot Instructors (PI's) who were mostly F/O's by seniority, for sim training but they did NOT give check rides, type rides or PC's. They all had to go through a Captain's qualification, type ride and maintain a Captain's qualification during their stint "in the fleet" as a PI.
In other carriers, I've never heard of the scenario you mentioned.
Sounds very "fishy" to me.
G'Luck Mate
I won't claim to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination and I've seen some strange things in aviation but in my 18+ years in a major airline 121 training environment, I've never heard of a First Officer giving PC's, recurrent and Captain upgrades.
United used Pilot Instructors (PI's) who were mostly F/O's by seniority, for sim training but they did NOT give check rides, type rides or PC's. They all had to go through a Captain's qualification, type ride and maintain a Captain's qualification during their stint "in the fleet" as a PI.
In other carriers, I've never heard of the scenario you mentioned.
Sounds very "fishy" to me.
G'Luck Mate
Agreed..they all go through the entire Captain upgrade program to include IOE and a line check. They do not give MV or LOE rides. Just your basic sim sessions and FTD's.
In regards to the airline I fly for and legally speaking are absolutely 100% incorrect in your statement above.
I was a 777 PI for 6 years and am currently back in the building as a 76T/756 FI/E ( same thing different name now, as a Type B, PI).
An FI/E (Flight Instructor/Evaluator) can in fact give a PC and they do in fact administer PV's and MV's and requal 1,2,3 and landing requal. The ONLY check rides we can't administer by company rules are LOE's and type rides.
But as a matter of fact once you are Type B (FI/E, or check airmen qualified) the FAA considers you a designated examiner on that airplane. And in fact you are perfectly legal to administer type rides on that airplane type and I have done so for several airlines on a contract basis.
The FAA, as mentioned previously does not care what your seniority can hold at your airline. Once you are type rated you are legal to act as PIC and once you go through the proper training and take an FAA administered examiner's check ride you are legal to instruct and give type ratings on your specific airframe. It generally takes a new flight instructor about 18 months of instructing to become a full MV qualified examiner.
I hope this clears up the confusion a bit.
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,206
I'm a sim check airman at my company. I'm a line FO, but I've been through the upgrade sim training and type ride. I have not done upgrade IOE and I cannot fly in the left seat in the aircraft, though I can sit left seat for a sim event. (Seat support.)
So yes, it does happen. It actually seems fairly common.
So yes, it does happen. It actually seems fairly common.
#26
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Posts: 16
I'm a sim check airman at my company. I'm a line FO, but I've been through the upgrade sim training and type ride. I have not done upgrade IOE and I cannot fly in the left seat in the aircraft, though I can sit left seat for a sim event. (Seat support.)
So yes, it does happen. It actually seems fairly common.
So yes, it does happen. It actually seems fairly common.
The personnel in question were only given a PC in the left seat. They did not go through the upgrade training program, neither upgrade ground school nor the upgrade simulator training. Just a normal PC, but given with them in the left seat. They were not given any OE or line training in the left seat either. I did consult with FAA legal about this, starting with an regional FAA legal office, and finally ending with the head FAA legal office in DC. After about six month of investigation, the FAA responded with: the intent of FAR 121.411/121.412 is that simulator instructors and simulator check airmen fully complete an airline's upgrade training program, and be fully qualified as captains. However the FAA does grant significant leeway to the operator's individual POI and their discretion about waiving certain aspects of the regulation in order to qualify people as instructors and check airmen. In short, "these are the rules, but since we made the rules, we can bend the rules".
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