1000 hr requirement for 121.436
10-14-2015, 02:55 AM
#11
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Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 273
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
The FSDO level is not authorized to interpret regulation, and no answer you get at that level will be defensible, even if you receive it in writing. In other words, what you get is purely opinion, and at no time will you ever be able to fall back on that answer.
14 CFR 121.436(a)(3) states that a PIC under Part 121 must have 1000 hours as SIC either: under 121, 135, or 91K. Note that the specific 135 requirement is experience in turbojet multi engine (or multi engine in commuter operations) aircraft of 10 seats or more--in which the PIC must hold an ATP. Likewise, the 91K requirement is specifically multi-engine fixed wing airplane or powered lift operations in which the PIC must hold an ATP. In other words, not just any charter or fractional experience will do. The intent is that it's the equivalent level of responsibility and duty that a Part 121 operation would require.
If you operated for a foreign airline, it wasn't under Title 14 of the United States Code of Federal Regulations, and therefore, not a 91K, 121, or 135 operation.
Time spent as pilot in command or second in command in foreign operations does not apply to the 1000 hr. SIC requirement of 14 CFR 121.436(a)(3).
Note that 121.436(a)(3) doesn't apply if you've served as PIC under Part 121 prior to July 31, 2013.
If your experience wasn't working for a US carrier under 91K, 121, or 135, you may count 500 hours of military experience as PIC in a multi engine turbine aircraft (that requires more than one pilot) toward the 1000 hours required by 121.436(a)(3).
The following FAA Chief Legal Counsel Letters of Interpretation will help clarify the answer to your question and give additional insight. These are defensible and are a reliable source regarding the Administrator's position on your question:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf
The final letter of interpretation above serves to clarify the specific Part 135 reference requirements of the earlier Kelly letter.
14 CFR 121.436(a)(3) states that a PIC under Part 121 must have 1000 hours as SIC either: under 121, 135, or 91K. Note that the specific 135 requirement is experience in turbojet multi engine (or multi engine in commuter operations) aircraft of 10 seats or more--in which the PIC must hold an ATP. Likewise, the 91K requirement is specifically multi-engine fixed wing airplane or powered lift operations in which the PIC must hold an ATP. In other words, not just any charter or fractional experience will do. The intent is that it's the equivalent level of responsibility and duty that a Part 121 operation would require.
If you operated for a foreign airline, it wasn't under Title 14 of the United States Code of Federal Regulations, and therefore, not a 91K, 121, or 135 operation.
Time spent as pilot in command or second in command in foreign operations does not apply to the 1000 hr. SIC requirement of 14 CFR 121.436(a)(3).
Note that 121.436(a)(3) doesn't apply if you've served as PIC under Part 121 prior to July 31, 2013.
If your experience wasn't working for a US carrier under 91K, 121, or 135, you may count 500 hours of military experience as PIC in a multi engine turbine aircraft (that requires more than one pilot) toward the 1000 hours required by 121.436(a)(3).
The following FAA Chief Legal Counsel Letters of Interpretation will help clarify the answer to your question and give additional insight. These are defensible and are a reliable source regarding the Administrator's position on your question:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf
The final letter of interpretation above serves to clarify the specific Part 135 reference requirements of the earlier Kelly letter.
(1) The holder of these operations specifications will conduct foreign air carrier operations in common carriage in the United States pursuant to the applicable requirements, including provisions of 14 CFR parts 91 and 129; 14 CFR part 175........
10-14-2015, 03:34 AM
#12
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Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,025
Originally Posted by AMC190
Well in the following paragraph of the operations specifications manual states that the foreign company I work falls under 14 CFR:
(1) The holder of these operations specifications will conduct foreign air carrier operations in common carriage in the United States pursuant to the applicable requirements, including provisions of 14 CFR parts 91 and 129; 14 CFR part 175........
(1) The holder of these operations specifications will conduct foreign air carrier operations in common carriage in the United States pursuant to the applicable requirements, including provisions of 14 CFR parts 91 and 129; 14 CFR part 175........
Are you working for a US certificated air carrier, or not?
If not, then a statement in your manual advising that you'll comply with US regulation does NOT make you a US carrier.
If you are flying for an operation that holds a Part 121 operating certificate under the United States Code of Federal Regulations, then you're flying for a US carrier.
Which is it?
Simply stating that your operations will be conducted in accordance with XXX doesn't make you or your certificate holder a US carrier. Where is your company operating certificate issued, and under what authority?
There are other countries in the world that mirror US regulations, nearly to the letter, in establishing their own. Saudi Arabia is one.
10-14-2015, 04:07 AM
#13
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Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 273
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
Be clearer.
Are you working for a US certificated air carrier, or not?
If not, then a statement in your manual advising that you'll comply with US regulation does NOT make you a US carrier.
If you are flying for an operation that holds a Part 121 operating certificate under the United States Code of Federal Regulations, then you're flying for a US carrier.
Which is it?
Simply stating that your operations will be conducted in accordance with XXX doesn't make you or your certificate holder a US carrier. Where is your company operating certificate issued, and under what authority?
There are other countries in the world that mirror US regulations, nearly to the letter, in establishing their own. Saudi Arabia is one.
Are you working for a US certificated air carrier, or not?
If not, then a statement in your manual advising that you'll comply with US regulation does NOT make you a US carrier.
If you are flying for an operation that holds a Part 121 operating certificate under the United States Code of Federal Regulations, then you're flying for a US carrier.
Which is it?
Simply stating that your operations will be conducted in accordance with XXX doesn't make you or your certificate holder a US carrier. Where is your company operating certificate issued, and under what authority?
There are other countries in the world that mirror US regulations, nearly to the letter, in establishing their own. Saudi Arabia is one.
And since it is part 91 operated, I was looking to clarify if I could make use of this vast of airline experience for a pic 121 job.
10-14-2015, 05:07 AM
#15
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Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,025
Originally Posted by AMC190
I'm not arguing wether the company is a US carrier or not, I'm a E 190 Capt in Mex, and we operate under those regs in the states, that's the whole purpose of being FAA certified.
And since it is part 91 operated, I was looking to clarify if I could make use of this vast of airline experience for a pic 121 job.
And since it is part 91 operated, I was looking to clarify if I could make use of this vast of airline experience for a pic 121 job.
When flying in the United States, yes, you must abide by the regulations established under Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations. That has nothing to do with your eligibility to fly for a US carrier, or your eligibility to obtain an airline transport pilot certificate.
Whereas you're not operating as pilot in command under 91K, 121, or 135, as previously discussed, your experience does not meet the requirement of 14 CFR 121.436(a)(3).
Previously you stated that you believe your "Operations Specifications" state that your work "falls under 14 CFR." That is incorrect. I don't know what "Operations Specifications" are assigned to you, but as you've established you're not working for a US certificate holder (charter, airline, or fractional), you don't have US Operations Specifications.
What you've cited is a requirement by your regulatory authority that you will abide by US regulations when operating in the United States. This applies regardless of who you are. If you fly in the USA, you'll abide US regulations. This is a blanket requirement as it is with any ICAO operation; you must still observe the regulation and legal requirement of the country in which you are flying.
If you wish to fly for a US carrier, you'll also need to meet the experience requirements applicable to that carrier. In the case of an airline (121) operator, you'll need to have the requisite experience to upgrade, and as 121.436(a)(3) spells out, you'll need a thousand hours of experience under 91K, 121, or 135 before you can upgrade.
Presently your situation does not meet that requirement.
10-14-2015, 05:53 AM
#16
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Posts: 273
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
Established: you are not working for a US carrier.
When flying in the United States, yes, you must abide by the regulations established under Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations. That has nothing to do with your eligibility to fly for a US carrier, or your eligibility to obtain an airline transport pilot certificate.
Whereas you're not operating as pilot in command under 91K, 121, or 135, as previously discussed, your experience does not meet the requirement of 14 CFR 121.436(a)(3).
Previously you stated that you believe your "Operations Specifications" state that your work "falls under 14 CFR." That is incorrect. I don't know what "Operations Specifications" are assigned to you, but as you've established you're not working for a US certificate holder (charter, airline, or fractional), you don't have US Operations Specifications.
What you've cited is a requirement by your regulatory authority that you will abide by US regulations when operating in the United States. This applies regardless of who you are. If you fly in the USA, you'll abide US regulations. This is a blanket requirement as it is with any ICAO operation; you must still observe the regulation and legal requirement of the country in which you are flying.
If you wish to fly for a US carrier, you'll also need to meet the experience requirements applicable to that carrier. In the case of an airline (121) operator, you'll need to have the requisite experience to upgrade, and as 121.436(a)(3) spells out, you'll need a thousand hours of experience under 91K, 121, or 135 before you can upgrade.
Presently your situation does not meet that requirement.
When flying in the United States, yes, you must abide by the regulations established under Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations. That has nothing to do with your eligibility to fly for a US carrier, or your eligibility to obtain an airline transport pilot certificate.
Whereas you're not operating as pilot in command under 91K, 121, or 135, as previously discussed, your experience does not meet the requirement of 14 CFR 121.436(a)(3).
Previously you stated that you believe your "Operations Specifications" state that your work "falls under 14 CFR." That is incorrect. I don't know what "Operations Specifications" are assigned to you, but as you've established you're not working for a US certificate holder (charter, airline, or fractional), you don't have US Operations Specifications.
What you've cited is a requirement by your regulatory authority that you will abide by US regulations when operating in the United States. This applies regardless of who you are. If you fly in the USA, you'll abide US regulations. This is a blanket requirement as it is with any ICAO operation; you must still observe the regulation and legal requirement of the country in which you are flying.
If you wish to fly for a US carrier, you'll also need to meet the experience requirements applicable to that carrier. In the case of an airline (121) operator, you'll need to have the requisite experience to upgrade, and as 121.436(a)(3) spells out, you'll need a thousand hours of experience under 91K, 121, or 135 before you can upgrade.
Presently your situation does not meet that requirement.
Alright then, I appreciate the info and the clarification with this issue of mine.
Looks like I will need to get those 1000 hrs, not a problem.....
10-14-2015, 08:35 AM
#17
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,025
In most cases, with most airline situations, you're not going to have a speedy upgrade. You're going to get time in the right seat regardless of your experience or background, as you'll be restricted from upgrading by seniority. By the time you do get to upgrade, you'll have your thousand hours.
The reality is that you should have that time and experience first, in order to act as pilot in command, so take advantage of getting it. See how the operation works, how it's conducted, so when you do eventually slide into the left seat, it's a familiar fit with that company and aircraft.
The reality is that you should have that time and experience first, in order to act as pilot in command, so take advantage of getting it. See how the operation works, how it's conducted, so when you do eventually slide into the left seat, it's a familiar fit with that company and aircraft.
10-19-2015, 08:10 AM
#18
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
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Posts: 1,373
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
In most cases, with most airline situations, you're not going to have a speedy upgrade. You're going to get time in the right seat regardless of your experience or background, as you'll be restricted from upgrading by seniority. By the time you do get to upgrade, you'll have your thousand hours.
The reality is that you should have that time and experience first, in order to act as pilot in command, so take advantage of getting it. See how the operation works, how it's conducted, so when you do eventually slide into the left seat, it's a familiar fit with that company and aircraft.
The reality is that you should have that time and experience first, in order to act as pilot in command, so take advantage of getting it. See how the operation works, how it's conducted, so when you do eventually slide into the left seat, it's a familiar fit with that company and aircraft.
10-19-2015, 08:47 PM
#19
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Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,025
Originally Posted by KSCessnaDriver
That may be true in most places, but on the fringes of the 121 supplemental world, this rule is killing people's ability to upgrade. I've been at a 121 supplemental carrier for 9 months, I have the seniority to upgrade, but not the required time, even though I came from 135 freight PIC. Great set of rules the fed made...
You could always petition for a rule change, but it's going to be a long, hard sell.
10-27-2015, 07:41 PM
#20
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Posts: 489
Originally Posted by KSCessnaDriver
That may be true in most places, but on the fringes of the 121 supplemental world, this rule is killing people's ability to upgrade. I've been at a 121 supplemental carrier for 9 months, I have the seniority to upgrade, but not the required time, even though I came from 135 freight PIC. Great set of rules the fed made...
But in that class would be 3 or 4 ex-CFIs who did have their 1500TT (and not much more) so they upgraded immediately and hit the line flying as 121 captains with zero 121 experience. Good pilots, but some (only having 100hr seminole time and 1400 C172/182 time) really had no business being a captain at their experience level - just over 1500TT, paired with a 250hr FO.
Most were fortunate to survive their experience, other were not - LOIs, LOCs, a few violations dotted the landscape. - the FAA is not forgiving and doesn't consider whether you have 0 or 15,000hrs of 121 time.
I'm pretty sure the airline I'm referring to was the genesis for the 1000 hr 121/135 flight time requirement in order to be a 121 PIC.
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