Should we be concerned for our future?
02-22-2022, 06:14 AM
#21
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,227
Originally Posted by chihuahua
Hopefully it will show us we can no longer be the interventionist world power that we were after WWII (face it, our war record went pretty much straight downhill from there) and that we need to get our sh1t together instead of telling the rest of the world how they should be behave. We need to be done with the god damn empire building and fix things at home before we lose it all.
It's a legit debate as to whether we should save all that money, resign as global cop, let Europe and Asia fall to the usual suspects, and go full isolationist. Since we (second only to Australia) have the largest moat in the history of warfare we could be reasonably secure in fortress North America.
But the economic cost of isolation would actually be far more than the bill for global cop, and rather disruptive to many sectors of our economy too. That's why you don't see too many politicians trying to go there. They all understand that, even if many of their constituents don't. I do agree that many of our allies need to pony up their contractual share of the defense bill... we should stand with them, not prop them up.
But I think you'll get your wish with regard to UK... Uncle Vlad is smart enough to slow boil that problem without a 1939-style overt invasion and that will give western politicians just enough political wiggle room to avoid an armed confrontation. Note how he "recognized" the breakaway regionals... now that they're recognized independent states he can claim they have the authority to invite Russian forces in for "peacekeeping" purposes.
Also note how we've been pretty careful about which eastern states we let into NATO... that preserves Russia's ability to use force to influence their neighbors without triggering Article 5.
02-22-2022, 06:57 AM
#22
Perennial Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2018
Posts: 11,481
Originally Posted by rickair7777
It's not actually empire building, the idea is to maintain a world order that allows for economic freedom and prosperity. We have ideals about democracy and humanity too, but it's the economics that underpin that.
It's a legit debate as to whether we should save all that money, resign as global cop, let Europe and Asia fall to the usual suspects, and go full isolationist. Since we (second only to Australia) have the largest moat in the history of warfare we could be reasonably secure in fortress North America.
But I think you'll get your wish with regard to UK... Uncle Vlad is smart enough to slow boil that problem without a 1939-style overt invasion and that will give western politicians just enough political wiggle room to avoid an armed confrontation.
It's a legit debate as to whether we should save all that money, resign as global cop, let Europe and Asia fall to the usual suspects, and go full isolationist. Since we (second only to Australia) have the largest moat in the history of warfare we could be reasonably secure in fortress North America.
But I think you'll get your wish with regard to UK... Uncle Vlad is smart enough to slow boil that problem without a 1939-style overt invasion and that will give western politicians just enough political wiggle room to avoid an armed confrontation.
Fortress America may be the best option.
02-22-2022, 07:02 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,039
Originally Posted by Excargodog
An armed confrontation? NATO minus the US pretty decisively loses any armed confrontation. They couldn’t take on the Serbian Army without our leading the way and they are no better off today. The US has pretty well demonstrated it can’t even manage a successful withdrawal from Afghanistan. The US military may be more woke and diverse than ever before but they have yet to demonstrate that translates into a more effective fighting force and COVID has clearly demonstrated how risk averse the nation has become.
Fortress America may be the best option.
Fortress America may be the best option.
And we are risk averse because armed conflict between two nuclear armed countries with large standing armies literally does no one any good and only has the potential for mass casualties unseen since the previous world war. There is no upside to engaging Russia on the battle field unless it is literally the only remaining option.
Fortress America is a dumb position. Sorry, not sorry. This isn't 1920. We can't survive without trade no matter how much we hold our breath and, while it's nice to have a few big oceans, ICBMs aren't that far away.
02-22-2022, 07:19 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2021
Posts: 421
Originally Posted by CBreezy
You need to watch less Tucker Carlson. Putin just made the argument that Ukraine (that's not just the ethnic Russian part, FYI) illegitimately separated from the USSR. Putin has been quoted as saying the greatest travesty in Russian history was the collapse of Soviet Union.
All the apologists have been excusing his poor behavior since the Georgia invasion. Oh it's just Georgia (insert fabricated excuse). Oh, it's just Crimea (insert fabricated excuse). Now it's just Eastern Ukraine because of some perceived slight. Could there be some legitimate gripes from the perspective of your Russian government? Yes. Absolutely. But you don't show up with 150,000 troops backed by nuclear warheads and say "give us that we want or else." That isn't diplomacy. That's hostage taking.
All the apologists have been excusing his poor behavior since the Georgia invasion. Oh it's just Georgia (insert fabricated excuse). Oh, it's just Crimea (insert fabricated excuse). Now it's just Eastern Ukraine because of some perceived slight. Could there be some legitimate gripes from the perspective of your Russian government? Yes. Absolutely. But you don't show up with 150,000 troops backed by nuclear warheads and say "give us that we want or else." That isn't diplomacy. That's hostage taking.
Both the Ds and Rs in the U.S., no matter how hawkish they are, know that there are probably about 10 people, total, such as yourself, in this country that would actually agree, that after the catastrophes of Iraq and Afghanistan more of our young should be sent to die or develop PTSD in order to "save" another corrupt bassackwards country and prop up another dictator (nobody seems to care about the dictator to our north that's willing to freeze people to death that disagree with him, but that's ok I guess).
If Putin wanted the whole thing, he'd have taken it already. This war has been going for 8 years. Also Ukraine isn't even a "democracy", none of these countries we spread "democracy" to, are, or will ever be democracies. If elections do happen, the candidates are always CIA supported, and if a non-CIA candidate does manage to win, he's never the good guy that will do what his people actually may want and the country always ends up needing another dose of "democracy". This is nothing but a distraction from the failures of the Brandon regime at home and a distraction for those that like living in clown world from what the clown to the north of us is doing to actual peaceful protestors.
As I said, $150 oil is what we need to end this horse manure once and for all. Anyone who wants to go fight in a regional conflict between foreign countries should be able to go sign up for the armed forces of their chosen country, if they so choose, otherwise 5TFU.
02-22-2022, 07:32 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,039
Originally Posted by chihuahua
You should go to Ukraine and sign up for their armed forces since you feel so strongly.
Both the Ds and Rs in the U.S., no matter how hawkish they are, know that there are probably about 10 people, total, such as yourself, in this country that would actually agree, that after the catastrophes of Iraq and Afghanistan more of our young should be sent to die or develop PTSD in order to "save" another corrupt bassackwards country and prop up another dictator (nobody seems to care about the dictator to our north that's willing to freeze people to death that disagree with him, but that's ok I guess).
If Putin wanted the whole thing, he'd have taken it already. This war has been going for 8 years. Also Ukraine isn't even a "democracy", none of these countries we spread "democracy" to, are, or will ever be democracies. If elections do happen, the candidates are always CIA supported, and if a non-CIA candidate does manage to win, he's never the good guy that will do what his people actually may want and the country always ends up needing another dose of "democracy". This is nothing but a distraction from the failures of the Brandon regime at home and a distraction for those that like living in clown world from what the clown to the north of us is doing to actual peaceful protestors.
As I said, $150 oil is what we need to end this horse manure once and for all. Anyone who wants to go fight in a regional conflict between foreign countries should be able to go sign up for the armed forces of their chosen country, if they so choose, otherwise 5TFU.
Both the Ds and Rs in the U.S., no matter how hawkish they are, know that there are probably about 10 people, total, such as yourself, in this country that would actually agree, that after the catastrophes of Iraq and Afghanistan more of our young should be sent to die or develop PTSD in order to "save" another corrupt bassackwards country and prop up another dictator (nobody seems to care about the dictator to our north that's willing to freeze people to death that disagree with him, but that's ok I guess).
If Putin wanted the whole thing, he'd have taken it already. This war has been going for 8 years. Also Ukraine isn't even a "democracy", none of these countries we spread "democracy" to, are, or will ever be democracies. If elections do happen, the candidates are always CIA supported, and if a non-CIA candidate does manage to win, he's never the good guy that will do what his people actually may want and the country always ends up needing another dose of "democracy". This is nothing but a distraction from the failures of the Brandon regime at home and a distraction for those that like living in clown world from what the clown to the north of us is doing to actual peaceful protestors.
As I said, $150 oil is what we need to end this horse manure once and for all. Anyone who wants to go fight in a regional conflict between foreign countries should be able to go sign up for the armed forces of their chosen country, if they so choose, otherwise 5TFU.
And if Putin wanted the whole thing, he'd have taken it? Well this certainly is an interesting development, isn't it.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ad-2022-02-22/
Finally, I'm not big on comparing present day things to Hitler BUT, outside of the atrocities he committed, this move is looking very similar to the lead up to World War 2. He annexes Austria and then goes to "rescue" German speaking people of Czechoslovakia. But it's okay because that's all he was interested in doing, right? Uniting the original Bohemia and that's it. Does that sound familiar? We've seen this before and it didn't work out well for Europe. Autocrats who are just looking to "save" their people have other plans and inaction by the "free west" will result in us being forced to engage militarily to defend ourselves and our European allies.
02-22-2022, 07:38 AM
#26
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 1,846
Originally Posted by chihuahua
Despite what the MSM, CIA, RINOs, and the former party of peace and tolerance want you to believe, Russia only has an interest in the ethnically Russian areas of Ukraine. This non-sense has been going on since 2014 when the CIA successfully supported a "student" revolution that removed the Ukrainian president and installed "our" guy. (They also tried to do the same thing to ethnically Russian areas of Georgia in 2008, but the Russians managed to put that one down.) Once that happened war broke out in the Eastern areas of Ukraine that lead to an unofficial Russian intervention (again, not like the CIA has never done the same thing). During that intervention the Russians shot down MH17. There has been a "ceasefire" for some time now, but they have been basically been at war ever since 2014.
Back to today. Over the weekend the Russian supported rebel forces in Eastern Ukraine said they were going to start fighting again, and I think today Russia officially recognized the breakaway regions. Vlad knows he has the west by the balls because we keep electing leftist politicians who don't understand physics or reality, and go "green" by enriching tyrants (such as Vlad himself) in places that don't exist because the the T.V hasn't told us about them. You are about to start paying for your ESG scores and all that non-sense. TBH, we need something like oil at $150/barrel and the Starbucks groupies to not be able to afford their lattes anymore to wake this country up. This is the only thing that will do it. Too many of us grew up in too much comfort, ignorance, and insulation from reality. Best to get it over with now.
Back to today. Over the weekend the Russian supported rebel forces in Eastern Ukraine said they were going to start fighting again, and I think today Russia officially recognized the breakaway regions. Vlad knows he has the west by the balls because we keep electing leftist politicians who don't understand physics or reality, and go "green" by enriching tyrants (such as Vlad himself) in places that don't exist because the the T.V hasn't told us about them. You are about to start paying for your ESG scores and all that non-sense. TBH, we need something like oil at $150/barrel and the Starbucks groupies to not be able to afford their lattes anymore to wake this country up. This is the only thing that will do it. Too many of us grew up in too much comfort, ignorance, and insulation from reality. Best to get it over with now.
Originally Posted by chihuahua
Hopefully it will show us we can no longer be the interventionist world power that we were after WWII (face it, our war record went pretty much straight downhill from there) and that we need to get our sh1t together instead of telling the rest of the world how they should be behave. We need to be done with the god damn empire building and fix things at home before we lose it all.
Originally Posted by chihuahua
You should go to Ukraine and sign up for their armed forces since you feel so strongly.
Both the Ds and Rs in the U.S., no matter how hawkish they are, know that there are probably about 10 people, total, such as yourself, in this country that would actually agree, that after the catastrophes of Iraq and Afghanistan more of our young should be sent to die or develop PTSD in order to "save" another corrupt bassackwards country and prop up another dictator (nobody seems to care about the dictator to our north that's willing to freeze people to death that disagree with him, but that's ok I guess).
If Putin wanted the whole thing, he'd have taken it already. This war has been going for 8 years. Also Ukraine isn't even a "democracy", none of these countries we spread "democracy" to, are, or will ever be democracies. If elections do happen, the candidates are always CIA supported, and if a non-CIA candidate does manage to win, he's never the good guy that will do what his people actually may want and the country always ends up needing another dose of "democracy". This is nothing but a distraction from the failures of the Brandon regime at home and a distraction for those that like living in clown world from what the clown to the north of us is doing to actual peaceful protestors.
As I said, $150 oil is what we need to end this horse manure once and for all. Anyone who wants to go fight in a regional conflict between foreign countries should be able to go sign up for the armed forces of their chosen country, if they so choose, otherwise 5TFU.
Both the Ds and Rs in the U.S., no matter how hawkish they are, know that there are probably about 10 people, total, such as yourself, in this country that would actually agree, that after the catastrophes of Iraq and Afghanistan more of our young should be sent to die or develop PTSD in order to "save" another corrupt bassackwards country and prop up another dictator (nobody seems to care about the dictator to our north that's willing to freeze people to death that disagree with him, but that's ok I guess).
If Putin wanted the whole thing, he'd have taken it already. This war has been going for 8 years. Also Ukraine isn't even a "democracy", none of these countries we spread "democracy" to, are, or will ever be democracies. If elections do happen, the candidates are always CIA supported, and if a non-CIA candidate does manage to win, he's never the good guy that will do what his people actually may want and the country always ends up needing another dose of "democracy". This is nothing but a distraction from the failures of the Brandon regime at home and a distraction for those that like living in clown world from what the clown to the north of us is doing to actual peaceful protestors.
As I said, $150 oil is what we need to end this horse manure once and for all. Anyone who wants to go fight in a regional conflict between foreign countries should be able to go sign up for the armed forces of their chosen country, if they so choose, otherwise 5TFU.
Have I accidentally flipped on NewsMax? Tucker? Is that you? Imaging flying a 4 day with this clown. Jesus.
It kills me how the right wing mass media has brainwashed my fellow conservatives into loving Russia and dictators like Putin. It's really too bad none of you lived through the Cold War and Reagan era. You'd realize Russia isn't our friend.
02-22-2022, 07:44 AM
#27
It's 5 o'clock somewhere
Joined APC: Oct 2020
Posts: 1,846
Originally Posted by CBreezy
\
Finally, I'm not big on comparing present day things to Hitler BUT, outside of the atrocities he committed, this move is looking very similar to the lead up to World War 2. He annexes Austria and then goes to "rescue" German speaking people of Czechoslovakia. But it's okay because that's all he was interested in doing, right? Uniting the original Bohemia and that's it. Does that sound familiar? We've seen this before and it didn't work out well for Europe. Autocrats who are just looking to "save" their people have other plans and inaction by the "free west" will result in us being forced to engage militarily to defend ourselves and our European allies.
Finally, I'm not big on comparing present day things to Hitler BUT, outside of the atrocities he committed, this move is looking very similar to the lead up to World War 2. He annexes Austria and then goes to "rescue" German speaking people of Czechoslovakia. But it's okay because that's all he was interested in doing, right? Uniting the original Bohemia and that's it. Does that sound familiar? We've seen this before and it didn't work out well for Europe. Autocrats who are just looking to "save" their people have other plans and inaction by the "free west" will result in us being forced to engage militarily to defend ourselves and our European allies.
It's really too bad that so few of these keyboard warriors actually studied history. They get all their information from their favorite blogger or mass media talking head then spew all day in fake battles on social media, instigated by Russian trolls.
02-22-2022, 07:46 AM
#28
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,848
Originally Posted by CBreezy
I am not at all saying we need to send troops there now to fight Russians. In fact, I've explicitly said we shouldn't. I don't know how hard that is to read.
And if Putin wanted the whole thing, he'd have taken it? Well this certainly is an interesting development, isn't it.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ad-2022-02-22/
Finally, I'm not big on comparing present day things to Hitler BUT, outside of the atrocities he committed, this move is looking very similar to the lead up to World War 2. He annexes Austria and then goes to "rescue" German speaking people of Czechoslovakia. But it's okay because that's all he was interested in doing, right? Uniting the original Bohemia and that's it. Does that sound familiar? We've seen this before and it didn't work out well for Europe. Autocrats who are just looking to "save" their people have other plans and inaction by the "free west" will result in us being forced to engage militarily to defend ourselves and our European allies.
And if Putin wanted the whole thing, he'd have taken it? Well this certainly is an interesting development, isn't it.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ad-2022-02-22/
Finally, I'm not big on comparing present day things to Hitler BUT, outside of the atrocities he committed, this move is looking very similar to the lead up to World War 2. He annexes Austria and then goes to "rescue" German speaking people of Czechoslovakia. But it's okay because that's all he was interested in doing, right? Uniting the original Bohemia and that's it. Does that sound familiar? We've seen this before and it didn't work out well for Europe. Autocrats who are just looking to "save" their people have other plans and inaction by the "free west" will result in us being forced to engage militarily to defend ourselves and our European allies.
I do agree that Europe needs to do the heavy lifting on regional situations like this. The one thing that differs from 1940 is Europe has the power to squeeze financially without needing to use combat.
02-22-2022, 07:47 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,039
Originally Posted by Margaritaville
You and I agree on very little but this does look a lot like the appeasement of Hitler.
It's really too bad that so few of these keyboard warriors actually studied history. They get all their information from their favorite blogger or mass media talking head.
It's really too bad that so few of these keyboard warriors actually studied history. They get all their information from their favorite blogger or mass media talking head.
02-22-2022, 07:54 AM
#30
That/It/Thang
Joined APC: Aug 2020
Posts: 2,848
Originally Posted by CBreezy
I find it shocking the amount of people who are willing to excuse the aggressive and imperial aspirations of Autocrats. I find it equally shocking the amount of people who think isolationism is a legitimate geopolitical position especially considering the interconnectedness of the global economy.
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