Collins82

Hey all, I am a PDP pilot with a 135. I have 250 hours logged through training and currently have 60 hours in the jet I am in. However I can not log any of those 60 hours yet. I am 30 years old and I went to a 141 to get my private, instrument, commercial, and multi. The progam allowed me to finish with 250 hours and start working with a company that would train me on the job and I would fly the jet and log the hours. This jet is single pilot, however with the PDP being approved i would be able to log SIC turbine time. This all sounds great but here is my dilemma, I've been working here for over 3 months now, and only have 60 hours in the jet, and I can't log any of it yet becaue on the companies side of the PDP program it stipulated we have to pass a 135 checkride in the aircraft. I would be ok with that if I had 150 hours in it by now and was familiar flying and landing it and could take a check relatively soon, bu at this pace who knows how long it will be. I only get to fly the empty legs obviously and that doesn't leave a lot of time for me to fly. Factoring conditions in as well. On top of that the other training we got wasn't much. Four hours of ground training and then 50 hours of computer based training online covering ground as well. It's not consistent enough for me to learn and get the hang of it. My question is, do I stick it out here or do I go get my CFI and grind the hours out that way? From what I hear, the hours logged in this jet don't hold a lot of weight as it is single pilot and my SIC hours in it would but essentially useless. So a hop straight to a 121 isn't likely as long as my hours are logged in this jet, however an upgrade can and most likely will happen, but again, I am unsure of the hours I will get still. I figure after a hard grind in CFi I can get the 1500 in a little over a year as I've know several instructors who,ve done this and I plan on renting also. After that I'd spend a year or two at a regional? Is this a reasonable assumption? My goal is the airlines and at my being 30, I'd like to not waste any time and to get my seniority building. Any input or advise would be greatly appreciated!

Twincezzna

60 hours in 3 months and you're only flying empty legs? So the plane is Flying 40 hours per month? That's not bad. Study up and pass the 135 check so you can actually log the time. If you have resources see if you can get a PIC type rating in it. That may cost almost the same as getting your CFI+II certs. Then you can log PIC on the empty part 91 legs.

Azpilot06

Let me see if I'm tracking:

I have 250 hours, a wet commercial ticket. I'm working in a jet and I'm unhappy that things aren't going fast enough. Should I get my CFI and go back to piston singles, while CFIs are desperate to get out of doing smash-and-gos and would do scandalous things to occupy the seat I currently hold?

Oh, what a time to be a pilot.

JohnBurke

Presently, you're logging empty (Part 91) legs only, in a turbojet, multi engine airplane, correct? You indicate that you have 60 hours in the aircraft, but can't log it (you have zero hours in the aircraft).

Do you have a type rating in this aircraft?

14 CFR 135.99(c)(3)(iii) requires that you comply with the crewmember testing requirements of Part 135, Subpart G, in order to participate in the pilot development program. That's not a logging requirement: that's a participation requirement.

135.293(b) requires you to pass a competency check in the aircraft. Without that, you can't participate in the pilot developoment program. You must undergo all the initial training and checking for that certificate holder, in order to participate in the pilot development program.

You seem to be caught in a Catch-22; you're not confident enough or comfortable enough to take a checkride, but you can't be in the pilot development program unless you do take that checkride.

I think it's fairly clear that you are not type rated in the aircraft. Type ratings, incidentaly, are conducted to ATP standards.

If you're not type rated in the airplane, you can't log PIC. If you're not in the PDP, you can't log SIC. It's a single pilot airplane, so your "dead" legs (part 91 legs) aren't loggable. You can't log it as sole manipulator PIC, because you're not qualified. You can't log it as SIC because there's nothing that would permit you to do so. It's single pilot, you're not under 135 on those legs, not qualified to participate in the PDP program, and unless the PIC is a flight instructor signing your time off as instruction received, then you have no provision that legally allows you to log that time.

The question is, then, what you are doing in that seat. If you don't plan to take a checkride as SIC in the pilot development program, do you plan to sit in that seat not logging time, indefinitely?

Think about the role of the SIC: it is to assist the PIC in normal operations, but also to take command of the aircraft if the PIC is incapacitated or otherwise unable to perform his or her job normally. That seems straightforward on a nice, calm, VFR day flight into a long runway. Are you ready to do it with ice and convective weather at night in the mountains to a stiff crosswind? If you're not, maybe you are in over your head.

Your commentary suggests that this is an hours-building exercise for you. It also suggests you have no way of building hours while doing this. If your goal is to gain experience, by which I mean both logged hours and actual life-experience on the job, then you may need to step back, get more qualifictions, and get a job that maches your experience level. Instructing is not a bad gig. It sounds like you have a fresh commercial and just enough hours to meet the minimums, so even a 135 VFR PIC position is out of the question.

You may want to look at instructing, flying jumpers, towing banners, or doing something along those lines, or finding a SIC program you can jump into presently that will operate at your speed and confidence level.

Sliceback

You've got a job that you can't log any time in. You don't have a type rating to fly the airplane in a Part 135 operation.
You're not logging time to met future requirements.

You're tuning radios in a 300 kt jet. Yes you can learn there but that time building isn't helping you because it's 'off the books' and you can't log anything.

Get a job flying that you can log the flying time.

Twenty hours a month is terrble. Make future resumes based on realistic assumptions of choosing different career paths. You want to get to a major? Plan on 2000 hrs TT at the lower end (some get there sooner but plan on then 50th percentile vs the unicorns. Want a Big 3 job? You're probably going to need 3,000+ TT as the median.

Evaluate the different potential resume building paths. At 20 hrs month/250 hrs a year it will take you 7 yrs to reach 2000 hrs. If you go CFI/regional you can do that in 2.5-3 years. In another 2-3 years you can probably upgrade at the regional. At the 7 year mark on that path you'd be at 3500-4000+ hrs and getting Part 121 TPIC time vs PIC time in a single pilot jet.

Don't focus on today's pay check or which job is 'cooler'. Pick the job, regardless of the pay if you can swing it, that advances you quickest towards your ultimate goal. Right now that is NOT sitting in a seat, that you can't log, regardless of how many hours you're tuning radios a month.

Collins82

I may have misspoken. If I am given good quality and consistent training, I have no probelm taking the checkride. The company is paying for it, however it is taking too long yes. At this point im closer to being here for 4 months. As a new pilot, getting on average of 3 hours a week in the aircraft isnt sufficient training, and at several times my schedule has had me off for 1.5-2 weeks. We havent done any single engine approaches or V1 cuts. I have only landed several times. Yes, its too slow. I would love to get in there and pass and log the time, eventually get moved up to the Hawker or something, but that seems so far out.

Yes this is an hours building exercise for me, it is a stepping stone. I just wanted advise from people out in the industry who are already in the airlines or regionals. I realize it may seem like I am being ungrateful. I feel very lucky to be where I am, the whole scenario is going slower than I'd like and instead of just complaining or impulsively jump to CFI or something else, I figured I would come here and see. Thank you for the insight!

Collins82

There is 3 aircraft, and 4 PIC's and 3 SIC's (PDP SIC's). We are all in the same boat from the same school. The other two are struggling a bit and are getting more hours because of it. They each have over 100 hours and still cant land or talk on radios. Ive done fine the whole time and have been told that by the company, but as a CA told me the other day, I might be a "victim of my own success". Meaning that because I was doing well, the other guys are given the flight time to try and improve. The company will evnetually send us to flight safety for the Type on either this aircraft or another and I think we would be moved to another before we got PIC in this one. I am currently studying for both this and for my CFI+II. Just want to be as prepared as I can. Really regretting just not getting my CFI immediately after training. I could have 300 hours logged by now. Either way oh well.

Collins82

Alright alright, I realize this is a good opportunity. I am not getting the training or time required to log this time so I am being completely stagnant, while all those CFI's are gaining hours towards their goal, and will most likely get to their goal faster than I. Which is why I came here seeking advise/guidance. I am pretty sure any CFI would be freaking out if they were expected to take a 135 check and only got to sit in the aircraft an average of 3 hours a week. With several weeks off at a time. They would go back to being CFI's lol

JohnBurke

You're talking about basic flight training. In the real world, V1 cuts aren't done in the airplane. They're done in simulators.

You say its an "hours-building exercise" for you, but you haven't built any hours. You won't, either, because you're not close to being in a position to take a checkride in the airplane, and you can't log the time, or even participate in the PDP program, until you've met the requirements to do so...which includes taking a checkride under 135.293, as previouslly pointed out. You can't log it as you're not tped. You can't log it because you're not in the pilot development program (can't be, without the checkride, and associated training). You're a passenger. If your purpose for being there is "hours building," and you're not "building hours," then what is it that you're doing, and haven't you already answered your own question as to what you need to do? Or are you simply looking for affirmation, to hear someone tell you to stick with it? Nobody's telling you that. Do you wonder why?

Sliceback

If it's an 'hours building exercise' how many hours have you actually logged in the last x (4 months?) at this job? Not how many hours have you sit in the right seat of a single pilot jet aircraft. Officially logged hours.
If you were a CFI you could have approx 300 hrs more time by now.

The quickest path to the majors is via the regionals. Your current path is measured in decades and not years.