Good question. I was under the assumption you can only log dual given as "airplane" time. I guess since it doesn't count toward the total time column, what's the use??

 

I'm sending you a PM right now!!

 

Wow, dual given is airplane, pic, and total time... where'd you guys get anything else and what would be the point of flight instructing if it were that way?

 

Yes, this is correct.

 

Wrong. Try FAR 61.57 (a)(1)(i)

For currency purposes, you must be the sole manipulator. Since currency is the primary reason for logging landings, the industry standard is that all logged landings will qualify for legal currency purposes.

If a CFI logs all landings that his students do, then a potential empoyer would have great difficulty verifying that you had maintained LDG currecncy while employed as a CFI, since only sole manipulator LDG's count. Note: If you DEMONSTRATE a LDG to student, that counts since you were the manipulator (that's how I stayed LDG current). But LDG demonstrations aren't needed very often, and everybody knows it. I would get 1-2 LDG's each month, hopefully at night.

I'll caution new pilots against taking FAR paragraphs verbatim...there are often OTHER paragraphs elsewhere in the FAR's which apply, as well as FAA Legal Opinions, Advisory Circulars, and NTSB determinations to take into account. You really just need some experience in the business to have a good feel for it...the landing issue is just one of those things that you would know after doing it for a few years.

Also an airline might very well terminate an interview if you showed up and a significant amount of your "total time" actually turned out to be sim time...your REAL total time might be less than mins, or what was competetive for them at the time. Also they will be annoyed that you misrepresented yourself. We are in the business of flying airplanes, and flight experience is the key marker for career progression. Simulators are used for training, and real pilots don't count that as flying. If you think you're going to change the industry standard by quoting an out-of-context FAR at an interview, you're in for a surprise.

Remember, I'm here to help you, not argue about things with which I have years of experience.

 

Ok, so a CFI will make more than 3 landings in 3 months. I would like to think that most CFIs would do a little flying on the side for themselves, such as ME time.

I've discussed this issue with some folks at the club, some of them current RJ pilots, and not a one was even asked about landings in the interview. They just looked at times. I wouldn't bluntly say "WRONG" when there's nothing in the FARs that says "Flight instructors cannot log landings while giving flight instruction". If you find otherwise, I'll admit I'm wrong and move on. I don't think the FAA is going to go out of their way to burn an instructor who is logging all landings. That's just silly. Maintaining currency shouldn't be an issue for most pilots flying consistently. But I get your point.

 

To simplify, here is a summary of what a CFI/CFII/MEI can log while giving dual. This is based mostly on the FAR's, as well as "industry accepted practice". Following these guidelines will simply your future job-hunting experiences.

CFII giving Sim Instruction: This CANNOT be logged in ANY airplane related column. Not even maybe. However it is a good idea to log sim dual given in a SEPERATE column that you create...sim dual given time might help you get a job as a sim instructor either at your airline, or after you get furloughed.

Dual Given in airplanes:

- Total Time: Yes
- Dual Given: Yes
- PIC: Yes (there are a very few exceptions, such as if the CFI has no medical).
- ASEL or AMEL: Yes, whichever is applicable
- Night: Yes
- XC: Yes
- Instrument: Log only actual IMC (any IMC counts, regardles of who is manipulating).
- Simulated Instrument: No (VFR practice, or IFR-in-VMC doesn't count unless YOU are under the hood).
- Approaches and Holds: No (you must be sole manipulator, so a demonstration could count if YOU flew it)
- Landings: No (you must be sole manipulator, so a demonstration could count if YOU flew it)
- High Performace: Yes
- Complex: Yes

You should also log (in a seperate column) dual given as a CFII...this time can count for certain part 141 jobs, if you ever need a job. This can be in any airplane, as long as it was towards an instrument rating or the instrument requirements of another rating.


Did I forget anything?

 

Nope, you didn't miss a thing. I even like your idea about logging the CFII sim time given in a separate column.

I looked at the FAR you referred to and it is simply for currency but still doesn't specify exactly what landings can't be logged as a CFI. That's a gray area and I'm not too worried about it anyway as I will be doing plenty of landings on my own time.

 

Nobody cares about how many LDG's you have. Airlines only look at them for one purpose: To ensure that you NEVER flew while out of currency...even a brief gap in the distant past will disqualify you. Logging your student's LDG's would create confusion and doubt, which will not help you get the job.

They also look at instrument, night, and BFR currency. They have specially trained auditors (or interview captains) review your logbook...you want it as clean and black-and-white as possible.

 

Im aware of your first sentence, as that has been my point all along.

A gap in the distant past will not disqualify you from getting a job. Who told you that?!? I have met many captains and other pilots who have had years between flying and are now working at UAL, AAL, etc. I have a pretty big gap of "occasional" flying after 911 but that's not going to doom my career. That's absurd. As far as landings, the RJs just want to see that you are current, they're not going to go through your landings with a fine tooth comb. Logging student landings is not going to keep you from getting a job. They would lose a lot of applicants if they went through the trouble to make sure that you didn't log landings during instruction given. With all honesty, I could care less about logging my landings as long as I do enough to keep myself current while instructing.

I will say this. A gap between "employment" isn't in the pilots' favor but it still doesn't wreck his career or disqualify him/her. That's a very subjective thing as they could have taken sick leave, had a death in the family....Who knows.