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Old 06-18-2019, 06:11 PM   #11  
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Amazon unfortunately is operating like DHL. A hodgepodge of ACMI carriers who low bid each other for the business and a race to the bottom. The only way for the pilots to come out on top in this scumbag environment , is a radical new approach and tactic to unify the acmi labor groups and demand across the board competitive wages. It would be a monumental undertaking but one worth the effort imo. The collective union groups would have to bury the past and focus on the future.
Am I dreaming or can a concept like this work? otherwise its a lost battle and each pilot group is ticked at the other. With FedEx dropping Amazon, the lift is going to the other acmi carriers, but the wages are not. Its a win for Amazon. (Cheaper lift than FedEx)
Please chime in with your thoughts.
Thanks
1224 tried that, and they ruined it when they tried to hold K4 pilot group back.
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Old 06-18-2019, 06:21 PM   #12  
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1224 tried that, and they ruined it when they tried to hold K4 pilot group back.
The K4 pilot group voted for the worst retirement that I know of in aviation. They VOTED for it. It wasn't rammed down their throats by an Arbitrator like Atlas/Southern is about to go through. I listened to them threaten 1224 leadership on crew call ins because leadership wouldn't allow them to overwhelmingly vote FOR THE worst retirement in aviation. How in the world was 1224 holding K4 back? If Connie had offered a $40 an hour raise with a 2.5% match he'd have probably gotten over 50%.

Look... There's no magic wand. If management wants to treat you the way Atlas/Southern is treated then it's up to the pilot group. Since Atlas can't vote 100% of their pilots younger than about 58 should have apps out. Leave.
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Old 06-18-2019, 06:35 PM   #13  
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The K4 pilot group voted for the worst retirement that I know of in aviation. They VOTED for it. It wasn't rammed down their throats by an Arbitrator like Atlas/Southern is about to go through. I listened to them threaten 1224 leadership on crew call ins because leadership wouldn't allow them to overwhelmingly vote FOR THE worst retirement in aviation. How in the world was 1224 holding K4 back? If Connie had offered a $40 an hour raise with a 2.5% match he'd have probably gotten over 50%.

Look... There's no magic wand. If management wants to treat you the way Atlas/Southern is treated then it's up to the pilot group. Since Atlas can't vote 100% of their pilots younger than about 58 should have apps out. Leave.
We have a pretty unified pilot group, fixing retirement is high up on the list.
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Old 06-18-2019, 07:06 PM   #14  
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We have a pretty unified pilot group, fixing retirement is high up on the list.
It's a hill worth dying on for both Atlas/Southern and Kalitta.
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Old 06-19-2019, 05:39 AM   #15  
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Originally Posted by MentalMidget View Post
Amazon unfortunately is operating like DHL. A hodgepodge of ACMI carriers who low bid each other for the business and a race to the bottom. The only way for the pilots to come out on top in this scumbag environment , is a radical new approach and tactic to unify the acmi labor groups and demand across the board competitive wages. It would be a monumental undertaking but one worth the effort imo. The collective union groups would have to bury the past and focus on the future.
Am I dreaming or can a concept like this work? otherwise its a lost battle and each pilot group is ticked at the other. With FedEx dropping Amazon, the lift is going to the other acmi carriers, but the wages are not. Its a win for Amazon. (Cheaper lift than FedEx)
Please chime in with your thoughts.
Thanks
I am "legacy" Atlas (in other words, pre-Atlas/Polar merger).

I would give something like this my tentative support. My full support would depend on exactly which personalities begin to emerge as "leaders". Character is critical, as I don't need to explain.

Problem is, there are so many "characters" in this industry.

Someone should try to organize it. Someone with some vision.
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Old 06-19-2019, 05:55 AM   #16  
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Originally Posted by MentalMidget View Post
Amazon unfortunately is operating like DHL. A hodgepodge of ACMI carriers who low bid each other for the business and a race to the bottom. The only way for the pilots to come out on top in this scumbag environment , is a radical new approach and tactic to unify the acmi labor groups and demand across the board competitive wages. It would be a monumental undertaking but one worth the effort imo. The collective union groups would have to bury the past and focus on the future.
Am I dreaming or can a concept like this work? otherwise its a lost battle and each pilot group is ticked at the other. With FedEx dropping Amazon, the lift is going to the other acmi carriers, but the wages are not. Its a win for Amazon. (Cheaper lift than FedEx)
Please chime in with your thoughts.
Thanks
It has already failed. Kalitta left 1224, and with that the dream of a unified ramp died. Kalitta had decent reasons, although maybe a bit short sighted, for leaving the Teamsters. The blame doesnt just lie with Kalitta, DW ****ed off both Omni and kalitta by stalling their contracts *way* longer than necessary. Guys will always push for their own short to medium term best interest and that's going to make it impossible to do what you suggest. It would require sacrifice, and pilots as a whole aren't going to sacrifice anything when a shiny jet gets dangled in front of them- particularly not for their competitor!
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:15 AM   #17  
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It has already failed. Kalitta left 1224, and with that the dream of a unified ramp died. Kalitta had decent reasons, although maybe a bit short sighted, for leaving the Teamsters. The blame doesnt just lie with Kalitta, DW ****ed off both Omni and kalitta by stalling their contracts *way* longer than necessary. Guys will always push for their own short to medium term best interest and that's going to make it impossible to do what you suggest. It would require sacrifice, and pilots as a whole aren't going to sacrifice anything when a shiny jet gets dangled in front of them- particularly not for their competitor!
What it requires is a change to how airline unions operate. A page could be taken from the steel workers union. It doesnít matter which construction company gets the bid award to build a new bridge or building. They must hire union steel workers. The companies donít dictate wages, the union does.

What we need is a single seniority list that is based upon your total years flying union 121, not years at company ABC. Your seniority and pay are totally portable. If company A is treating their pilots poorly, you go to Company B with your seniority and standard union benefits intact.
The companies can go bid for contracts to their hearts content, but like the steel industry, they pay union wages. There is no whipsaw since itís one big pilot group.

The only way to implement it, since nobody currently working is going to let an Atlas guy come into K4 or OMNI and bid ahead of them is to build it with a fence. Anybody hired after a certain date goes onto the single list. Once the percentage is high enough of one listers working, the union gives every company the new base contract, benefits package and retirement package.

With the rapid turnover and hiring, this is actually a good time to work on this. 1224 should pick a date, about 4-5 years from now, and ensure no new CBAís are signed with a duration beyond that date. It will put every 1224 into section six simultaneously.

Quietly be building the single list starting today for all new hires. Draft the 1224 CBA and just wait.

NFL and other sporting teams are unionized with an industry wide common CBA for everything except pay which fir them is performance related above a basic pay.

This takes the whipsaw off the table.

Just a random thought....
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:52 AM   #18  
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What it requires is a change to how airline unions operate. A page could be taken from the steel workers union. It doesnít matter which construction company gets the bid award to build a new bridge or building. They must hire union steel workers. The companies donít dictate wages, the union does.

What we need is a single seniority list that is based upon your total years flying union 121, not years at company ABC. Your seniority and pay are totally portable. If company A is treating their pilots poorly, you go to Company B with your seniority and standard union benefits intact.
The companies can go bid for contracts to their hearts content, but like the steel industry, they pay union wages. There is no whipsaw since itís one big pilot group.

The only way to implement it, since nobody currently working is going to let an Atlas guy come into K4 or OMNI and bid ahead of them is to build it with a fence. Anybody hired after a certain date goes onto the single list. Once the percentage is high enough of one listers working, the union gives every company the new base contract, benefits package and retirement package.

With the rapid turnover and hiring, this is actually a good time to work on this. 1224 should pick a date, about 4-5 years from now, and ensure no new CBAís are signed with a duration beyond that date. It will put every 1224 into section six simultaneously.

Quietly be building the single list starting today for all new hires. Draft the 1224 CBA and just wait.

NFL and other sporting teams are unionized with an industry wide common CBA for everything except pay which fir them is performance related above a basic pay.

This takes the whipsaw off the table.

Just a random thought....
Oh if only it could be so.
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:57 AM   #19  
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I don't think the RLA will allow that. Steelworkers unions fall under the NLRB which is a bit different, and it's more than coincidence it's that way.
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:58 AM   #20  
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It has already failed. Kalitta left 1224, and with that the dream of a unified ramp died. Kalitta had decent reasons, although maybe a bit short sighted, for leaving the Teamsters. The blame doesnt just lie with Kalitta, DW ****ed off both Omni and kalitta by stalling their contracts *way* longer than necessary. Guys will always push for their own short to medium term best interest and that's going to make it impossible to do what you suggest. It would require sacrifice, and pilots as a whole aren't going to sacrifice anything when a shiny jet gets dangled in front of them- particularly not for their competitor!
Blame DW all you want but if Pilot Groups are threatening Union Leadership with violence to vote for the Retirement that they voted for then you can't blame 1224 Leadership. If the Pilot Groups that work for these ACMI Carriers all want to vote for a 5% 401k match on a 10% Personal contribution that's limited to $10,000, no daily trip rig, less than industry standard pay rates, 64 hour guarantees, and 26 hour work days then it sets the bar low for all the other carriers. If Atlas/Southern end up in front of an Arbitrator in the next 12 months there's nothing leadership can do.

The system was supposed to be that there'd be agreements that there was a floor that nobody would accept less than. You can do that without all being in the same Union if Pilot Groups would hold out for Industry Standard Contracts and Atlas/Southern wasn't getting Amalgamated.
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