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Old 05-24-2007, 06:11 AM   #761  
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Default JetJock is a bald faced liar!

I asked for the Jug.......he poured me a cup. Just the way I like it. Strong, black, and oily.....put a little in your mouth and keeps you up all night.
3/4 of the way to the tippy top.

Gentlemen, we have 2 more MIAs this Memorial Weekend....unfortunately the third is a KIA. Keep them in your prayers....may you have a reverent and appreciative Memorial Day weekend.

I am off to DC with 200,000 of my closest motorcycle friends to bring a little attention to the issue, as well as supporting Veterans Affairs. Probably be no mention of it on CNN again this year, even though we shut down Washington all day on Sunday last year.

I'll be the guy on the Harley with the POW/MIA flag on one side and Old Glory on the other......see if you can spot me.

Last edited by Laughing_Jakal; 05-24-2007 at 06:12 AM. Reason: Wanted JetJock know I was facetious
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Old 05-24-2007, 08:18 AM   #762  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyC View Post
OK, seriously . . . the question I asked in Post #727 wasn't intended to be rhetorical. I want some real feedback.

What if all the Over-60 guys were junior? Would that make a difference in how you feel about letting them bid the right seat (or left seat)? What if we let them go back to the end of the seniority list when they turn 60, and then bid what they can hold? The only people that would be affected are the ones that haven't been hired yet. That way it wouldn't slow you down, right? Would that make it easier to swallow?
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OK I'll answer that. Yes it would matter. I dont care if every single one was junior to me for several reasons:

1. The manner which this decision was reached by the MEC. I still do not swallow this attitude that it was the right thing to do. The right thing to do is represent the majority view, not what DW thinks is good for us. If DW goes to the Exec meeting and is on the losing side of a majority vote to change the ALPA policy, then so be it. Then he comes back and tells us, sorry but this is the way it is and we follow the lead of ALPA national. But DW for some reason needs to be with the winning side. Why? It makes no sense. I'm tired of the MEC telling me they are doing things for my own good. They stole scope money from me without asking to fund VEBA (which we will no longer need), they extended the increase dues we voted in during negotiations without asking (which we no longer need).

2. Future negotiations. How in the world are the negotiators going to justify the b-fund and continued retirement at 60? I'll tell you the companies position 5 years from now, "well since you guys were for age 65 retirement here is a contract with no b-fund and age 65 replacing 60. B-fund was to bridge you to 65 which you no longer need and we'll keep everything else the same except for changing the age." How is the union going to justify supporting age 65 now but age 60 retirements during contract negotiations?

3. I dont want to work til I'm 65. I came into this job with the expectation of retiring at 60. I dont want to die in some hotel in HRL waiting for 5pm so we can go to the taco place for a bite to eat together.

I'll take the minority point of view of those who believe age 65 is a bad idea and say, if the person is on the seniority list, they should hold what they bid. My anger is not directed at anyone over age 60 but those who are failing to see the long term problems with that position. And that is my MEC.

We just negotiated a contract that got us basically nothing but retirement benefits. Oh yeah, A-380 rates (gone), VEBA (not needed), 7% b-fund(which is the bridge we needed to get from 60-65, now not needed). We just gave away everything we got in the new contract, except of course our cost of living raise. For that alone we should replace every block rep that did not support his people (see especially blocks 7 and 8) when elections come up. These are the guys who sold us out.
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Old 05-24-2007, 08:49 AM   #763  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyC View Post
What if all the Over-60 guys were junior? Would that make a difference in how you feel about letting them bid the right seat (or left seat)? What if we let them go back to the end of the seniority list when they turn 60, and then bid what they can hold? The only people that would be affected are the ones that haven't been hired yet. That way it wouldn't slow you down, right? Would that make it easier to swallow?
.
All of that stuff is beside the point to me. I'm pretty junior in my seat/domicile and I'm starting to think of myself as a short timer. If I retire at 60. And that is my intent. What bothers me, a lot, is the uncertainty of the age change.

My wife and I have spent almost 29 years planning for a retirement at 60. The chance that those plans might be scrambled at this stage of my career irritates the holy crap out of me. I just took a physical yesterday. The doc who does my physicals has been at it for a long time and he stays up with things. He thinks there's a very good chance that the medical standards will change. Not right away, but possibly down the line. And can anyone absolutely, positively (to coin a phrase) guarantee that the IRS isn't going to slam our B plan? The loss of the B plan plus the real possibility that we could lose or have a substantially altered A plan should be on everyone's minds.

We spend our entire working lives trying to wring out the uncertainties of our job in order to keep it safe. I hate uncertainty at work or in my financial life. And that's what age 60 represents to me. Uncertainty. The junior folks should be thinking more in terms of the retirement picture than on the shorter term impact on upgrades. As most are aware, the older you get the less time you have to recover and/or adjust. And for God's sake, if it flies, floats or, ummm, copulates, either make a long term commitment to it or rent it.
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Old 05-24-2007, 08:53 AM   #764  
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Great posts fub141 and ranger.
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Old 05-24-2007, 09:33 AM   #765  
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Does anyone want to defend ALPA National and our MEC for hiding the poll results? And why they might hide them? The use any number they can from them to support their sell out of us and hide the numbers that disagree with them. And yes I asked my block rep and he said "Dave Webb will be advocating for the timely publication of those results".
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Old 05-24-2007, 09:37 AM   #766  
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ALPA message line just came out with some high points:

ALPA will no longer object to age 60.

ALPA opposes any strengthing of medical requirements

ALPA is against having one crew member under 60 as a requirement

ALPA is against retro except for those carriers having CURRENT FLIGHT DECK OFFICERS..

So..for those that were wondering how ALPA would "shape the process...", here is your answer.

They want to do everything they can to protect the over 60 crowd and allow them to fly without restrictions as long as possible.

There is no more guesswork. Now you know.
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Old 05-24-2007, 10:20 AM   #767  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetjok View Post

Tony, Tuck, and Huck (sounds like a law firm, similar to Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe),

The problems I see with this idea are many. First off, seniority is seniority, pure and simple.

Easy there, Jetjok. Just 'cuz I asked the question doesn't mean I support the idea -- I threw it out there to generate discussion. I wanted to highlight an issue that really cuts to the core, and you've nailed it. If we're willing to let guys fly over 60 so long as they give up their seniority numbers, we're admitting it's not the principle of flying over 60, but the selfish desire to get that guy out of our way, seniority be damned.

I realize that not many people took to their keyboards to respond, but I'd venture to say that several had to think about it enough to get the point. I don't want the rule to change, but I'm more adamant about protecting seniority. I'm not willing to abandon seniority just to make the Age change more palatable.





.
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Old 05-24-2007, 10:23 AM   #768  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD11HOG View Post

Does anyone want to defend ALPA National and our MEC for hiding the poll results? And why they might hide them? The use any number they can from them to support their sell out of us and hide the numbers that disagree with them. And yes I asked my block rep and he said "Dave Webb will be advocating for the timely publication of those results".

Yeah, I'll defend them. They're not hiding anything. They just reported the findings of the Blue Ribbon Panel, including the results of two targeted telephone polls and the webpoll, to the Executive Board in session this past week.

They didn't invite me to attend and pay for my hotel room, so don't feel like you got left out.





.
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Old 05-24-2007, 10:44 AM   #769  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyC View Post
Yeah, I'll defend them. They're not hiding anything. They just reported the findings of the Blue Ribbon Panel, including the results of two targeted telephone polls and the webpoll, to the Executive Board in session this past week.

They didn't invite me to attend and pay for my hotel room, so don't feel like you got left out.

.


Hey Tony,
I'm againist illegal's coming north, but it looks like George wants to give em a pass, should I changed my position in order to influence the process?

Hey Tony,
I'm againist abortion, but it's legal, should I flip flop my position and quit giving away money to support the fight?

Hey Tony,
I'm againist Euthinasia, but some bleeding heart liberal will probably see at as the "right thing to do" for our terminally ill and it will become legal in the future, should I flip flop my position and influence the process?

Hey Tony,
Our founding fathers were againist taxation without representation, do you think they were wrong to go to War with England even though they knew the chances of winning were slim to none?

Hey Tony,
Is protecting the seniority of the "fly till we die" crowd more important than protecting our retirement at age 60 and our B fund?

Hey Tony,
Should our MEC and ALPA national totally blow off what the majority of our membership want becuase it's the "right thing to do."

Hey Tony,
Has ALPA ever been wrong in your eyes?
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Old 05-24-2007, 10:47 AM   #770  
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This thread is closed (768 replies, that's amazing). Please pick up the conversation in Part II.
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