maxconthrust

on a lighter note, how come there is a monthly new hire class until the end of 2023?
is this in anticipation of upcoming retirements? or just to cover the latest resignations?

woog315

cover attrition and “position for growth” according to latest company email. Saying there will be classes all year is different from there actually being classes… Better question for everyone that thinks “planned” classes is positive news is why arent they upgrading any captains?

Reactivity

So I asked some questions and got some answers, and the answer regarding the status of that grievance is denied at step 1. The explanation for it was something about the contract requiring uniformity in the conduct of training that crewmembers receive, and not that every crewmember must receive every bit of training that any other crewmember receives.

Is it possible that you were thinking of a grievance regarding payment for LDS recurrent training, now moot since the FAA decided that currency on either LDS or FPDS counts for the other so long as LDS initial training has been done?

Reactivity

I'd guess because it's expensive to have extras on hand, and it takes only half as long to produce one compared to the time it takes to produce an FO.

The question I'd pose to those who think the hiring is entirely for attrition is why a company that has perennially understaffed itself is going on a hiring spree when fully half of the 140-ish FOs are going to be in a reserve status in July. Have the tightwads in the executive suite suddenly and collectively lost their ever-loving minds?

Tripilot25

It’s seems todays EXCO’s email goes far beyond of any hope in the near future for ABX in the ACMI business. As a summary: less flying lines, a reduction on transatlantic flight’s, no response’s from the board of directors on Union’s recommendations on attrition, not just ABX but ATI’s & OMNI as well, “ATSG carrier struggling to retain pilots and achieve contract improvements”, Massive attrition is occurring, Don't count on anything changing in the near future. Upgrades are limited to 2 per quarter (if so), not the best retirement, no overtime/open-time on the F/O side with under industry standards pay for equipment. This are just few of the real items company is struggling with at this time.

woog315

dude, there are 15 more FOs on reserve than captains, and the premium is endless on the captain side (jr manning today, in fact). So acting like “half the FOs being on reserve” is crazy is just weird, a ton of us are on rsv every month (around 1/3 of us) …. FOs are leaving at a much faster clip than our crusty old captains, and hiring at most 8/month isnt a “hiring spree” when you are losing that many every month, lol. Its not impossible that we have business coming our way, but there is very little going on at the company to indicate that, and you are *really* stretching it trying to read between the lines. Why pay an FO to sit around doing nothing all day and also pay several captains 200% every single day for whatever random trips need to be filled? It makes no sense if there is imminent growth. It does, however, make sense if you are expecting high FO turnover and for the airline to shrink- just pay premium to the captains while you park planes, and replace the massive exodus of FO as you need to.

peterq

Ok.... so I'm throwing this out there to try to get a realistic number of an ABX FO's annual pay. During my interview I asked the question of what is the average first year salary for an FO at ABX. The response was that the average was well over the base pay, which really did not get to the point of my question. Now I realize that they could not really expand upon that as everyone's experiences my vary, but I would like to get an idea what the average first year FO is bringing home per month. The APC profile page states "FO base pay – Year 1 - $68,070", but in my case that would be a tight squeeze on our family finances, especially since I probably need to move back to the US from Europe at my own expense. I have searched the threads but have not come across any recent posting. Any enlightenment would be appreciated.

Reactivity

The APC info page is outdated, and I don't know on what basis they gave you that response in the interview. It was certainly possible in the recent past to do better than the base, but I don't see it right now.

As a rough estimate, as of January 1, 2024, FO first year is $70816 ($90.79 x 65 x 12). Add on per diem at $56 per day for about 10 days per month, which may be a high estimate. Subtract $5417 for FICA, $5173 for medical (assuming employee + spouse & children), $7000 as a guess at federal tax withholding, and a small amount for union dues - I seem to recall they go easy on you for the first year. All of that puts you in the ballpark of $60,000 take home. That's not a lot, but for the Cincy/NKY area (2021 median household income around $45,000), it's not too bad. Add more for 401(k) if you so choose. The company gives you 5% and matches up to 3.5%.

There may be opportunities to pick up extra flying, especially if you will be near CVG and available on short notice, but I think they will be very limited for the forseeable future. Not that long ago, even on reserve, you could count on being busy most days. That's not the case today. We are way overstaffed on FOs. They're getting their initial 100 hours and then sitting a lot. You may have noticed that there is some disagreement as to why we are in that condition and continuing to hire, but that's where we stand currently.

If this is going to be a long-term move for you, it's going to be tight for a year, but you'll move up the list quickly as long as the majors keep hiring. You'll get good experience and fly with good people. The second-year FO rate will be $136.16 (making the base pay $106,205) and you probably won't sit as much unless you want to.

If this is a short-term move (i.e. less than two years) to burnish your resume for Big Name Airline with the hope that you'll be moving on before the year is out, you're not going to get the flight time you're looking for and frankly, at $50k a pop to train new hires and the company's view that there is no problem as long as we keep hiring replacements for the ones that just left, we'd probably all be better off if you were to go raid somebody else for a type rating and 121 time.

Lockheed

You might consider Atlas or Kalitta instead...both pay a lot more and they both churn through FO's..you'll gain senority very quickly

peterq

Thanks for the breakdown. I'd rather count on the minimum than to overestimate. I plan on staying with the company for the long haul. ABX will probably be the last stop before full retirement, no plans of going elsewhere, I just want to fly, enjoy my job along with other pilots who enjoy what they do, and make enough to be comfortable.