New Negotiating Chairman Search
09-01-2007, 08:41 AM
#11
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Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: MD-11 Captain
Posts: 4,304
Originally Posted by FoxHunter
ALPA has never hired a professional negotiator and never will. ALPA makes the rules, you don't.
The "Oracle" has spoken ... we can close the thread now. Thanks George.
09-01-2007, 09:57 AM
#12
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
Originally Posted by Micro
Now that it's official the BC is leaving (please don't let the door hit you in the As$ on the way out), hopefully we can find a new chairman with some balls who really WILL be able to direct negotiations that will improve the "pillars" of our contract vice coming out months later and admitting he couldn't improve our work rules. I've talked to a couple of guys itching to beat heads with the company.....hopefully they meet the "protocol" and have their resumes up to the MEC's liking.
I also think it's time our union starts using our dues (in our "best interest") by hiring PROFESSIONAL negotiators to sit at the table for us. If we want pilots in the background (ie chairman for direction), that's great. But it's time for the union and us to admit that we're PILOTS not NEGOTIATORS.
Call your block reps and have this discussion. I think it's time we explore and use this option. You can bet your as$ the company does. Anyone else agree???
I also think it's time our union starts using our dues (in our "best interest") by hiring PROFESSIONAL negotiators to sit at the table for us. If we want pilots in the background (ie chairman for direction), that's great. But it's time for the union and us to admit that we're PILOTS not NEGOTIATORS.
Call your block reps and have this discussion. I think it's time we explore and use this option. You can bet your as$ the company does. Anyone else agree???
We have RLA Attornies.
We have Erisa Attornies.
We have Insurance attornies and actuaries
We have EF& A experts (ecomiics, finance and analaysis)
We have Work rule experts
It is all how we decide to use them.
History has proven that each specific airline MEC prefers the control of having one of their own as Head of the team.
Besides, it is the Seniority holding members of the class and craft that potentially have to risk laying their pork on the platter. I would prefer the head guy to share the same risk as the rest of us, wouldn't you?
Besides, it is akward and cumbersome to have a guy sitting at the table who doesn't possess the authority to make the deal, a guy who will always have excuse himself and adjourn to another Hotel room down the hall to ask the Pilot expert.....is this GOOD or BAD?
That has always been our complaint with the FedEx Company negotiatiors.
Our guy at the table needs to have the authority right then and there to say we have a deal. A hired professional negotiator wouldn't have that clout, at least I wouldn't want him: a non seniority list pilot holding that clout....would you?
My 2 cents.
Last edited by RedeyeAV8r; 09-01-2007 at 10:03 AM.
09-01-2007, 10:07 AM
#13
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
Originally Posted by MaydayMark
You guys should know that nobody can do anything better than a pilot
... that said, I also like the professional negotiator idea because he will have no personal agenda other than the agenda the MEC gives him. Although this last contract had some reasonable "gains" there for more gains for BC personally than for me.
- He fixed his retiree healthcare but not mine.
- He fixed HIS duty rig ... and because he did, I'm not sure I'll ever be senior enough to really benefit from those trips
- He got himself A380 pay rates that HE might benefit from if he can get the company to agree to A380 rates for the 777 (I won't be senior enough to ever hold that airplane if it pay more)
- ...
Anyway ... you get the idea.
What's bad about the professional negotiator idea, in my opinion, is that there are hundreds of details in our contract that make no sense to the average person that understands the english language. Lots of airline lingo stuff that would make it a hard learning curve for the average attorney. YMMV.
Mark
... that said, I also like the professional negotiator idea because he will have no personal agenda other than the agenda the MEC gives him. Although this last contract had some reasonable "gains" there for more gains for BC personally than for me. - He fixed his retiree healthcare but not mine.
- He fixed HIS duty rig ... and because he did, I'm not sure I'll ever be senior enough to really benefit from those trips
- He got himself A380 pay rates that HE might benefit from if he can get the company to agree to A380 rates for the 777 (I won't be senior enough to ever hold that airplane if it pay more)
- ...
Anyway ... you get the idea.
What's bad about the professional negotiator idea, in my opinion, is that there are hundreds of details in our contract that make no sense to the average person that understands the english language. Lots of airline lingo stuff that would make it a hard learning curve for the average attorney. YMMV.
Mark
09-01-2007, 11:15 AM
#15
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Drinking from the fire hose
Posts: 305
Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
WE already have professional negotiators. We have lawyers and other experts from Herdon who are always there to assist.
We have RLA Attornies.
We have Erisa Attornies.
We have Insurance attornies and actuaries
We have EF& A experts (ecomiics, finance and analaysis)
We have Work rule experts
It is all how we decide to use them.
History has proven that each specific airline MEC prefers the control of having one of their own as Head of the team.
Besides, it is the Seniority holding members of the class and craft that potentially have to risk laying their pork on the platter. I would prefer the head guy to share the same risk as the rest of us, wouldn't you?
Besides, it is akward and cumbersome to have a guy sitting at the table who doesn't possess the authority to make the deal, a guy who will always have excuse himself and adjourn to another Hotel room down the hall to ask the Pilot expert.....is this GOOD or BAD?
That has always been our complaint with the FedEx Company negotiatiors.
Our guy at the table needs to have the authority right then and there to say we have a deal. A hired professional negotiator wouldn't have that clout, at least I wouldn't want him: a non seniority list pilot holding that clout....would you?
My 2 cents.
We have RLA Attornies.
We have Erisa Attornies.
We have Insurance attornies and actuaries
We have EF& A experts (ecomiics, finance and analaysis)
We have Work rule experts
It is all how we decide to use them.
History has proven that each specific airline MEC prefers the control of having one of their own as Head of the team.
Besides, it is the Seniority holding members of the class and craft that potentially have to risk laying their pork on the platter. I would prefer the head guy to share the same risk as the rest of us, wouldn't you?
Besides, it is akward and cumbersome to have a guy sitting at the table who doesn't possess the authority to make the deal, a guy who will always have excuse himself and adjourn to another Hotel room down the hall to ask the Pilot expert.....is this GOOD or BAD?
That has always been our complaint with the FedEx Company negotiatiors.
Our guy at the table needs to have the authority right then and there to say we have a deal. A hired professional negotiator wouldn't have that clout, at least I wouldn't want him: a non seniority list pilot holding that clout....would you?
My 2 cents.
And as far as authority at the table, it's exactly how the company plays it. It's time to have professionals at the table and not pilot "negotiator wanna-bes".
09-01-2007, 12:44 PM
#16
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
Originally Posted by Micro
We need them sitting at the table. It doesn't mean we (the union) give up the direction on where we want to go. And to all those who say a professional negotiator doesn't know our business, GIVE ME A BREAK. Just because they don't fly they can't understand our "lingo"?? I don't see the negotiators on the company side flying (except for the couple turncoats) and they seem to outmaneuver us every time!!!
And as far as authority at the table, it's exactly how the company plays it. It's time to have professionals at the table and not pilot "negotiator wanna-bes".
And as far as authority at the table, it's exactly how the company plays it. It's time to have professionals at the table and not pilot "negotiator wanna-bes".
"I want a good contract but I need to fly that sweet little draft trip CRS just offered."
"I need put in for that Make Up trip"
"I need to protect that 45 hour carry over trip"
and Oh by the way
"We really need those nice work rule improvements, but don't mind me if I pick up this disputed pairing. What does it matter?"
"My gosh, why are negotiations taking so long?.....excuse me I have to enter my vacation Buy Back request into VIPS to be first on the list."
Talk is Cheap...............and we are good at talking but not walking the walk.
fast forward 3 years...........................
Why didn't we get better work rules?
Why didn't we get better Pay rates?
Why did we lose Pay for training?
Why are our monthly schedules going down hill.?
Hello........Look to yourself and your fellow crewmembers before you throw darts at the leadership.
Newsflash---- We really don't require profesional negotiators.(although as I said we already have them in Herndon.......and they do sit at the table with our guys!)
We require a membership with Collective not Individual resolve. Chester Karass or Donald Trump can't get you a Better deal because the company doesn't negotiate with our guys until they see they can't negotitate with us. Things will not improve Until WE ALL are willing to participate in the process and hold those who are not.............accountable.
Last edited by RedeyeAV8r; 09-01-2007 at 12:56 PM.
09-01-2007, 01:11 PM
#17
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Drinking from the fire hose
Posts: 305
Originally Posted by RedeyeAV8r
They outmanuever us because certain percentage of Membership isn't behind the Negotiation effort with collective resolve. Just a few examples...............
"I want a good contract but I need to fly that sweet little draft trip CRS just offered."
"I need put in for that Make Up trip"
"I need to protect that 45 hour carry over trip"
and Oh by the way
"We really need those nice work rule improvements, but don't mind me if I pick up this disputed pairing. What does it matter?"
"My gosh, why are negotiations taking so long?.....excuse me I have to enter my vacation Buy Back request into VIPS to be first on the list."
Talk is Cheap...............and we are good at talking but not walking the walk.
fast forward 3 years...........................
Why didn't we get better work rules?
Why didn't we get better Pay rates?
Why did we lose Pay for training?
Why are our monthly schedules going down hill.?
Hello........Look to yourself and your fellow crewmembers before you throw darts at the leadership.
Newsflash---- We really don't require profesional negotiators.(although as I said we already have them in Herndon.......and they do sit at the table with our guys!)
We require a membership with Collective not Individual resolve. Chester Karass or Donald Trump can't get you a Better deal because the company doesn't negotiate with our guys until they see they can't negotitate with us. Things will not improve Until WE ALL are willing to participate in the process and hold those who are not.............accountable.
"I want a good contract but I need to fly that sweet little draft trip CRS just offered."
"I need put in for that Make Up trip"
"I need to protect that 45 hour carry over trip"
and Oh by the way
"We really need those nice work rule improvements, but don't mind me if I pick up this disputed pairing. What does it matter?"
"My gosh, why are negotiations taking so long?.....excuse me I have to enter my vacation Buy Back request into VIPS to be first on the list."
Talk is Cheap...............and we are good at talking but not walking the walk.
fast forward 3 years...........................
Why didn't we get better work rules?
Why didn't we get better Pay rates?
Why did we lose Pay for training?
Why are our monthly schedules going down hill.?
Hello........Look to yourself and your fellow crewmembers before you throw darts at the leadership.
Newsflash---- We really don't require profesional negotiators.(although as I said we already have them in Herndon.......and they do sit at the table with our guys!)
We require a membership with Collective not Individual resolve. Chester Karass or Donald Trump can't get you a Better deal because the company doesn't negotiate with our guys until they see they can't negotitate with us. Things will not improve Until WE ALL are willing to participate in the process and hold those who are not.............accountable.
I still think we DON"T need pilots sitting AT the table. The negotiators in Herndon aren't OUR guys. Yes they are available from ALPA but we don't "own" them. In the end, they're just "area" experts and not the guys fighting the company. I still haven't seen the overriding reasons we need PILOTS negotiating.
09-01-2007, 01:48 PM
#18
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Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Originally Posted by Lindy
FDX ALPA will not permit the Negotiation Chairman to be outside of the current MEC's "circle" and if you think otherwise, you are unfamiliar with the politics with this Association.
I would like to see a professional or at least a couple of our attorney/pilots and/or the guy with two Master's (one in Labor), but the current MEC group will not tap these people because of the aforementioned clique.
I would like to see a professional or at least a couple of our attorney/pilots and/or the guy with two Master's (one in Labor), but the current MEC group will not tap these people because of the aforementioned clique.
09-01-2007, 02:32 PM
#19
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: FDX Captain
Posts: 77
Step up to the Plate!
IMHO
BC did a hell of a job. If you look at the diverse subgroups in our pilot force, we had alot of factors for senior, middle ground, junior, and very young pilots in our group. Negotiating a contract to get back some of the stuff our previous friends gave away, like MR. FAT ONE did, and improving our current contract was a pretty big chore.
Especially considering all the factors we had to work with:
A pilot force that won't stop flying draft, volunteer, and open time.
A pilot force that flies DP's at the drop of a hat.
A CEO who is probably the most powerful CEO in the transporation industry.
Very Senior pilots.
Very Young Junior pilots
Pilots who expect to all be Captains in 4-5 years, because that is the sell job they got in their interview.
Pilots who only care about the W-2 at the cost of all else.
And the majority who are reasonable, and want a mix of safe work conditions, good pay, health care, and a retirement that will be there when we retire.
A NMB that made it clear we couldn't strike...(not to mention a President that put them in there, and a membership that also put him in there, based upon our Repbublican demographics)
And a federal court system and judges that are very ANTI LABOR.
I didn't see anyone else stepping up to the plate during all these times...mainly what I've seen is since the contract, alot of "what have you done for ME lately" comments from the peanut gallery.
The contract is over, we are getting ready for the next one. We did get significantly more out of the company than when we started. Is there room for improvements, yes there is, and yes we should continue to pursue them.
BTW, For those of you that don't know, all our negotiators from the MEC had alot of training, to include Harvard training, not just a workshop, very indepth training.
And more importantly, right along side of them, at almost every meeting we had with the company, we had ALPA's national representation team (i.e. professionals, who are amongst the best in labor) it just wasn't Bob at the table.
So lets give BC some credit where credit is due. Take out the egos and emotions, and look at the work that got done and the work we have to do.(and yes with BC there was alot of ego and emotion, but also a hell of alot of work done on our behalf)
We have an uphill battle going on with many of issues. Lets try and press forward and not allow the company to divide and conquer us, and to allow them to nickle and dime away what we have now.
FYI, I'm not an elected guy, manager or a close friend of Bob's, just a member that knows the huge amount of work done by these guys for several years.
Shot Out! Over
PS
(If you don't like what is going on, or how the lay of the land looks, do what Tony C did and get directly involved) There is alot of varied work to be done as a volunteer, and alot of impact can be made that way, otherwise I wouldn't be doing it now.
BC did a hell of a job. If you look at the diverse subgroups in our pilot force, we had alot of factors for senior, middle ground, junior, and very young pilots in our group. Negotiating a contract to get back some of the stuff our previous friends gave away, like MR. FAT ONE did, and improving our current contract was a pretty big chore.
Especially considering all the factors we had to work with:
A pilot force that won't stop flying draft, volunteer, and open time.
A pilot force that flies DP's at the drop of a hat.
A CEO who is probably the most powerful CEO in the transporation industry.
Very Senior pilots.
Very Young Junior pilots
Pilots who expect to all be Captains in 4-5 years, because that is the sell job they got in their interview.
Pilots who only care about the W-2 at the cost of all else.
And the majority who are reasonable, and want a mix of safe work conditions, good pay, health care, and a retirement that will be there when we retire.
A NMB that made it clear we couldn't strike...(not to mention a President that put them in there, and a membership that also put him in there, based upon our Repbublican demographics)
And a federal court system and judges that are very ANTI LABOR.
I didn't see anyone else stepping up to the plate during all these times...mainly what I've seen is since the contract, alot of "what have you done for ME lately" comments from the peanut gallery.
The contract is over, we are getting ready for the next one. We did get significantly more out of the company than when we started. Is there room for improvements, yes there is, and yes we should continue to pursue them.
BTW, For those of you that don't know, all our negotiators from the MEC had alot of training, to include Harvard training, not just a workshop, very indepth training.
And more importantly, right along side of them, at almost every meeting we had with the company, we had ALPA's national representation team (i.e. professionals, who are amongst the best in labor) it just wasn't Bob at the table.
So lets give BC some credit where credit is due. Take out the egos and emotions, and look at the work that got done and the work we have to do.(and yes with BC there was alot of ego and emotion, but also a hell of alot of work done on our behalf)
We have an uphill battle going on with many of issues. Lets try and press forward and not allow the company to divide and conquer us, and to allow them to nickle and dime away what we have now.
FYI, I'm not an elected guy, manager or a close friend of Bob's, just a member that knows the huge amount of work done by these guys for several years.
Shot Out! Over
PS
(If you don't like what is going on, or how the lay of the land looks, do what Tony C did and get directly involved) There is alot of varied work to be done as a volunteer, and alot of impact can be made that way, otherwise I wouldn't be doing it now.
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