I'm really surprised this is a debate among union members. One of the main reasons non members are non members is financial, the ability to get something for nothing. Why should we all subsidize these cheapskates?? If they have a fundamental issues with this union or any union (membership) they are free to quit and proudly wear their "non union" status as they see fit. In my experience few pilots that aren't members make themselves visible as such. Most would rather you didn't know and assume you thought they were in the union. Everyone benefits from the union's work, and it all cost money. Remove the financial incentive to not participating in the organization that protects/improves our profession, if someone is still unwilling to be a team player, at least they'd paid there share.

 

And remove the financial incentive that keeps the leadership in check and you have the teamsters.

 

We are pretty much in agreement. When DW and the NC said we were going after Agency Shop they never mentioned (that I am aware of) that they would be grandfathering those who weren't currently members. That little piece of info might have dimmed a lot of the enthusiasm from the crowd about Agency Shop and how much we were willing to give up in order to get it.

BC said it cost nothing, and I believe in the tooth fairy. EVERYTHING cost something. Whatever the cost was, and EVEN IF it were truly free, it wasn't worth it, in my opinion.

If Agency shop was so important, we should have required everyone to be made whole, not just the new guys coming on the property.

Furthermore, last I checked this is still a free country, and I have a problem with people being forced into membership in a union. I look at it like helmet laws, I am completely against them. I can't for the life of me, however, figure out why anyone would take the risk of riding a motorcycle without one.

For most guys I can't imagine why they wouldn't be in the union, but it is still a free country and they should have that choice. New hires should have the same choice the old guys got when they were hired. Either we're all in or we're not.

Personally, if I had walked the line and then watched ALPA embrace scabs and allow them into the union, I would probably not join the union either. Lucky for me that hasn't happened (to me), but if it did I would probably hand in my lanyard and pin, Agency shop be damned.

Another poster said it very well, ALPA dues are now just another TAX on my income, because I have no choice in the matter, I have to pay them.

I'd rather ALPA earn my DUES that I voluntarily send in because they represent my interests, just like I did before the current contract.

 

Look outside the Box a little..............

What happens after next contract negotiations are complete for the pilots who plan on retiring in 2-4 years. Lets say the retirement section was gutted and the senior guys are ****ed. Without Agency shop all these Senior Pilots could effectively quit the Union and pay nothing, and they are on the top end of dues revenue. Now you don't have Senior Capts paying.

That happened with our first contract.......remember??

Look at yourselves for a Second. All you guys are still po'd at the MEC for the AGE 60 thing and the LOA thing (although you all got to vote on the LOA , but can't live with democracy if things don't go your way). Many of you stated that if it wasn't for Agency shop you would have quit already. Without Agency Shop, you could have all quit and paid nothing. Who would that really benefit? You know, I don't like a lot of things in our new contract. What if we all just quit, that will sure show the UNION. That will fix everything. No thanks, I've been through that 3 times here at FedEx and all it did was cost us 12 years of wasted time and effort to get our 1st contract. So who does that beneifit again??

YOU personally and no one else. It wouldn't benefit the membership.

I further submit that if the UNION would have taken a hard radical stance on the LOA and told MGT to shove it, it would have been just as likley to have PO'd just as many members on the other side of the issue (if not more) because the UNION would have denied them the opportunity to Upgrade or Live abroad. So they could have quit over that and paid nothing. It is a viscious cycle. You see out of 4800 pilots, they don't all think alike and in case you haven't noticed, the MEC isn't doing a good job pleasing everyone at one time........but then again in my 20 plus years in this industry, I've rarely seen that on any property where it lasted for more than 12 months.

I remember when the UNION had to defend several NON-members in a termination arbitration case. I remember all the sqawking about "Why are we defending non-members? At least now everyone must pay an administration FEE. So in effect atleast NON memebers are paying for the services the UNION provides.

What if we end up merging with another carrier in the Future? What if they happen to be NON UNION or with another UNION? Would you like them to not have to pay dues once the Seniority list is intergrated and they are ****ed at the integration. Or what if they made out better than the bottom 500 JR guys here. I suspect some of you JR guys would threaten to quit and not pay dues.

Agency Shop isn't for the GOOD of YOU or ME, it is for the Good of the Association as a whole and good for the MEMbership. Ford/Harrison is a professional Union busting law firm that all Airlines hire for their "Labor relations". These guys are Pros and finding the Cracks or Crevices in the Union's solidarity. They love groups without Agency shop because it makes their $2,000'hour job much easier.

Now I'll concede that I would rather have a 97% happy and United membership, but UNITY or Soldiarity really has very little to do with Agency shop. If you don't like the leadership and the majority of the the membership feels that way, then it will change.
I don't like GWB. I didn't vote for him but I don't lose sleep over him either.
I still vote and pay taxes and try to live a meaningful life.

 

[QUOTE=FXDX;253169]
If Agency shop was so important, we should have required everyone to be made whole, not just the new guys coming on the property.

Furthermore, last I checked this is still a free country, and I have a problem with people being forced into membership in a union. I look at it like helmet laws, I am completely against them. I can't for the life of me, however, figure out why anyone would take the risk of riding a motorcycle without one.
Personally, if I had walked the line and then watched ALPA embrace scabs and allow them into the union, I would probably not join the union either. Lucky for me that hasn't happened (to me), but if it did I would probably hand in my lanyard and pin, Agency shop be damned.QUOTE]

I am sure our guys tried to have everyone covered under agency shop. I'm no lawyer, but I'm sure it would have created more law suits than it was worth.
And don't you think if the word was put out in advance about this that many folks would have quit the UNION so they wouldn't be grandfatherd?

AND BTW, yes this is a FREE country and you have Freedom of Speech.....................Just try to exercise your Freedopm of Speech on Company Property or a Company computer. You'lll be fired so quick it will make your head spin. I remember an FO who was at a union meeting in 1998 who exercised his Freedom of Speech voiced his Opinions of the Company and MGT. He got fired the next day.

A SCAB has nothing to do with Agency SHOP. A SCAB is a SCAB in my opinion.
The bottom line is that the UNION's purpose to Protect and enhance the careers of it's members. The UNION has done a pretty damed good job for the most part if you look at the Big Picture. The UNION isn't perfect nor is it some magic entity. National has made mistakes as well as Local. It's leaders are just folks like you and me. Fighting Big Corporations and Anti Labor Administrations isn't easy. It also takes a substantial amount of money.

If you think of paying UNION dues as nothing more than a TAX, than maybe you should turn in your Pin and Lanyard. In the BIG scheme of things, Unions especially ALPA is the reason why you wanted to be a Professional Airline Pilot.
You wanted to do something you loved and you wanted to make a decent living and wanted time off to enjoy that living. You have that my friend and all because of the UNION.

 

[QUOTE=RedeyeAV8r;253176]Look outside the Box a little..............

I remember when the UNION had to defend several NON-members in a termination arbitration case. I remember all the sqawking about "Why are we defending non-members? At least now everyone must pay an administration FEE. So in effect atleast NON memebers are paying for the services the UNION provides.

Everyone except the guys who were non members when the contract was signed.

If we were so worried about protecting the union we should have gone after those dues, which would be worth a lot more than the dues we got in the past year from the 100 or so new hires since the contract was signed, most of whom are just coming off probation and are just now starting to pay their tax, I mean dues.

You are regressing into the "you are pizzed about age 60 so you are attacking the union" argument. My position on Agency Shop has NOTHING to do with any of the other issues you mention. I didn't want Agency Shop last year, and I don't want it now. I'm not losing sleep over it and life will go on, but I don't think it was necessary nor advantageous to get it.

Obviously we will have to agree to disagree on that point, but if we have a chance to revoke it in future negotiations I will be in the camp that is in favor of doing so.

 

[QUOTE=FXDX;253184]
Sounds like you want to quit and not pay dues? Do you want something for nothing?

 

Redeye: I don't want this to take an ugly turn, I posted my comments above before I read your second post.

Imagine the lawsuits if the 4200 or so of us who were members at the time of the contract decided that WE didn't want to have OUR conditions of employment changed and all decided to quit and not pay the maintenance fee too boot.

How much would all of those lawsuits cost ALPA in order to recoup their precious dues?

Again, ALPA would be penalizing members while allowing non members to skate, simply due to their timing. And yes, I do think a lot of members would have quit if the grandfather clause info was released, and so what. If they felt later (like a day after signing) that they wanted to become a member again, they could. At least they would always have the same right to stop their membership down the road if they chose to just like the union provided to the non members.

That is precisely why the NC kept the info on the down low, and just another reason (for me) to not favor Agency shop.

 

No, I do not want to quit. I simply think we were stronger before, and are weaker now.

You disagree, that is fine.

Are you sure you're not on the MEC?

 

Oh I'm sure but maybe I should be........but I guess I wouldn't get your vote