SaltyDog

Agree but a bit optimistic at 2 years <g>
However, our section has coordinated with other committees for openers though. Also we diligently worked at defending CBA regarding our sections and added to the conract examples that were a big plus for the IPA pilots.

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE

I don't have the numbers in front of me but what is the current FO pay percentage when compared to the captain's pay? I believe one of the old contracts it was around 50% for the fist few years (among the lowest in the industry if i recall correctly - in effect a C-scale) and then it kept increasing gradually until it reached 65% or so.

In my view that percentage should be somewhere between 70-75% and it should start at year 2. In other words a 2nd year fo should be making 70% of second year captain pay (not that we have any 2nd year captains ), 5 year fo should be making 70% of 5th year captain pay and so on. No less than 70% for sure because of the extra 5 years in the right seat. We should obviously fight for the captain pay raises too however, the percentages should be fixed at the same time. So does anyone know what percentage is in our current contract? Maybe it's already at 70%?

Gunter

I know I'm just an outsider looking in....

I don't have such a dark picture of what the contract did for you. I look at your contract as a positive. It's pay structure is very unusual in our career and, in my opinion, long overdue. Especially helpful for a newer guy after the awful 1st year pay nonsense.

When you base lifetime earnings mostly on making CA, you build in some risk on when and if you make CA due to fleet growth (contraction?) and retirements.

UAL and AA are going to have many career FO's. It will take forever at NWA, DAL and Alaska now too. FDX is trending toward this too, many here just don't know it yet. Getting better pay sooner as FO appears to offer more stable lifetime earnings for the majority of folks. Less like winning the lottery.

Putting all the "good" pay in CA makes me think of this career as a Ponzi scheme as I see carriers rise and fall...


I wouldn't take it so personally that folks don't agree with your position. I don't think the average crewmember wishes you harm.

Swedish Blender

At this years rate (Jan 08) the top scale FO makes 68.9% of the top captains pay. At the end of the contract, the top FOs will make 70.9% of top captains pay. I think both sides should go up under the next contract. Granted the company will blame the economy, but in 2003 prior to BK, a 4th year Delta 767 FO made 164/hour. That is a 8 year FO at the end of the contract. Someone tell me that any pax airline made as much UPS even in their best year and then tell me we can't get higher rates.

I wasn't here prior to the contract but I am thankful it passed. I had an in-law retire after it which allowed me to start. Over 60/under 60, junior/senior will always be there and we need everybody to jump on board. Rising tide raises all boats is what we need to look at.

SPDBOILER

I can't believe you all are still debating the last contract. It is a done deal, has been for several years, and you can't go back and change the past. I would think you all would be thinking about the future. Here's something to think about. Regardless of how you perceive your last contract, I bet your next one will not be as good. I would suggest you all need to learn how to play nice together, get that group of yahoo's you call a union to start leading by example, and stop bickering about bs like age 65 and a past contract.

MaydayMark

I have no idea what will happen at UPS but at FedEx it seems as if most pilots are staying past 60? I have no idea why? It doesn't make any sense to me?


Mark

SaltyDog

If you are an IPA pilot you would understand the tribulation. If you are a UPS supervisor, The contract is violated routinely by our benevolent employer more than most airlines and it passed with the lowest approval (56%) of any CBA. You know this too. Many of us are very focused on the future as my previous post demonstrates. However, if your employer violates a contract, one must focus on it's enforcement. We live it, it is not something in the closet. Thus current discussion. At least we have the benefit of a union. <g>
Enforcement is a drawn out, frustrating experience which is exactly what UPS Labor does to foil opposition to contract enforcement. They want to wear us down to the point of simple compliance to whatever their whim. They want to violate without penelty of grievance. The 15% that file a grievance, UPS labor drags the grievance process for a year+. This is to 1) discourage others to file and capitulate 2) Allow company to continue the violation. It works, it leads to apathy too. Also lowers the bar for future negotiations. Good management tactic IMO. Takes leadership and engaged union to overcome.
You know all this too. Thanks for the encouragement. <g>

MoosePileit

[quote=757upspilot;469596]Do you understand that the majority of Captains are not going to hang around past 60.


I missed if this point had been clarified to match the facts in the discussion. I take it for now as my single issue on the thread.

Contract aside, which after 2 years is still up for debate almost line for line day to day- the gum-mint gave us all not 4 but 5 more years....... Personal financial planning and responsibility be darned......

Ah, just a reflection of society.......

1 in 5 seem to leave at 60, based on the facts.

UPSFO4LIFE

Well, add UPS to that trend too. There will be many here who never see the left seat. You may be able to upgrade in ANC sooner, but it's now 15+ years to upgrade.

Gunter

If this is now the case, I don't understand 757upspilot's position. And I don't mean that 757upspilot is more intelligent.

He says he used to support every union member, junior or senior. I just don't see how that was the case if he knows many will be FOs for 2/3's or more of their career.