UPS Threadjack divert (777 Pay= Airbus Pay FDX)
09-29-2008, 07:52 AM
#51
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Originally Posted by Biggs
The real division will come if this Finicial mess spreads, bussiness falls world wide (trends heading that way) and UPS finds itself in way excess of pilots and furloghs begin. Now you have a an over 60 guy who made poor life decisions and has to stay while some smart younger fellas with just bad luck get put on the street so the over 60 crowd can fund thier third wife, third house, third new car to carry around thier new baby from wife number 3 that is 30 years his junior. The fact is the greatest generation lost their youth fighting the war when they were in there late teens, and because of that they gave everything they didn't have (depression era kids also) to their kids and just plain and simple screwed them all up. I want more, more, more. It's not greed, it was how they were raised, in the 50's with everything you want and life was great, the US was king, the dollar strong, plenty of good paying old fashion blue collar jobs for the vets, pensions, gold watches after 30 years at the SAME job, a goverment that did what was right for the people and actually cared. Well now fellas its every man for themselves so they get lucky agian and fall into the new era of the US of me me me. Don't expect the Union (run by old guys) or the over 60 crowd to even follow the do not pick up open time deal if, god forbid the F word was announced they have liven high on the hog and gotten addicted to the crack of money and lots of it and lets work alittle more and get some more crack. unity will stop that day, just wait and see. the union has no teeth when and if an open time ban is called, it will be at that point when we will see real leadership. Real leadership is only demostrated in hard times and we have not seen any at UPS, ever and not in the USA for a very long time.
When UPS announced the furlough of the 100, "the old guys" lead the OT ban and UPS turned face and did not furlough.
I learned from "the old guys" and am not an "old guy" in mid forties <g>.
When did you start at UPS? You are not prohibited from running for office. Immense respect for the F/O's running now. Why didn't you run this time? As a junior Capt will always defend the group, but most of us not into bashing parts of it either. Been here long enough to know that senior Capts like 757upspilot did a tremendous amount to get us where we are. His frustrations are not unique.
Our biggest failure as a union? Very few know its history. We do a poor job of teaching our history.
09-29-2008, 07:54 AM
#52
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Biggs,
I think you're painting with a pretty broad brush on the over-60 crowd. As far as the baby boomers go, I agree that a very spoiled generation was raised. The rest of your post is just too pessimistic for me to come on board...We've had our big crises before in this country and we've always come out pretty much on top...Rev War, Civil War, Korea/VietNam (had bad points but we learned and came out better afterward), gas shortage, inflation, recession, depression, stock market crashes, civil rights, Challenger, 9/11...the list goes on and on. Each time America comes out a little more battered, but stronger and wiser for it hopefully. This current bump is a blip in our country's history...we'll get through it just fine. As far as our union leadership goes, we should get involved, debate, discuss and decide...when the decisions are made by the people that are elected, we should support them. I hope everyone will do that if the F word were ever to happen...Every person I've met at UPS has never given me a reason to doubt that. There are some fine pilots working here.
B2P
I think you're painting with a pretty broad brush on the over-60 crowd. As far as the baby boomers go, I agree that a very spoiled generation was raised. The rest of your post is just too pessimistic for me to come on board...We've had our big crises before in this country and we've always come out pretty much on top...Rev War, Civil War, Korea/VietNam (had bad points but we learned and came out better afterward), gas shortage, inflation, recession, depression, stock market crashes, civil rights, Challenger, 9/11...the list goes on and on. Each time America comes out a little more battered, but stronger and wiser for it hopefully. This current bump is a blip in our country's history...we'll get through it just fine. As far as our union leadership goes, we should get involved, debate, discuss and decide...when the decisions are made by the people that are elected, we should support them. I hope everyone will do that if the F word were ever to happen...Every person I've met at UPS has never given me a reason to doubt that. There are some fine pilots working here.
B2P
09-29-2008, 07:56 AM
#53
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[QUOTE=b2pilot186;470322]
My bust, worded poorly, you are correct and agree. More correctly,should have stated more accurately: UPS will maintain seperate lists gladly to save money or create division. It is like a hot launch, money is no object once contingency "believes" it is beneficial <g> even if is recalled after airborne.
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
UPS will gladly maintain two, three, four tables or more tables, lists, etc. This is fact. They will also try to divide Capt vs F/O, Senior vs junior, etc.
QUOTE]
I don't know if they would gladly do it or if it really is a rock-solid fact. They seem to be penny pinchers even in the best of times and it would cost more to manage two or more different benefit schedules. Regardless, my point was that because of ERISA, the current A plan cannot just be done away with by the company or the union arbitrarily, even with the flying age increase to 65. I do agree that a division within the ranks of pilots benefits the company...but I don't think they'll have to try too hard to do that themselves...unfortunately, our pilot group seems to do that fairly well all by itself sometimes.
B2P
QUOTE]
I don't know if they would gladly do it or if it really is a rock-solid fact. They seem to be penny pinchers even in the best of times and it would cost more to manage two or more different benefit schedules. Regardless, my point was that because of ERISA, the current A plan cannot just be done away with by the company or the union arbitrarily, even with the flying age increase to 65. I do agree that a division within the ranks of pilots benefits the company...but I don't think they'll have to try too hard to do that themselves...unfortunately, our pilot group seems to do that fairly well all by itself sometimes.
B2P
09-29-2008, 08:01 AM
#54
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Position: MD11 CPT
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Originally Posted by Biggs
The real division will come if this Finicial mess spreads, bussiness falls world wide (trends heading that way) and UPS finds itself in way excess of pilots and furloghs begin. Now you have a an over 60 guy who made poor life decisions and has to stay while some smart younger fellas with just bad luck get put on the street so the over 60 crowd can fund thier third wife, third house, third new car to carry around thier new baby from wife number 3 that is 30 years his junior. The fact is the greatest generation lost their youth fighting the war when they were in there late teens, and because of that they gave everything they didn't have (depression era kids also) to their kids and just plain and simple screwed them all up. I want more, more, more. It's not greed, it was how they were raised, in the 50's with everything you want and life was great, the US was king, the dollar strong, plenty of good paying old fashion blue collar jobs for the vets, pensions, gold watches after 30 years at the SAME job, a goverment that did what was right for the people and actually cared. Well now fellas its every man for themselves so they get lucky agian and fall into the new era of the US of me me me. Don't expect the Union (run by old guys) or the over 60 crowd to even follow the do not pick up open time deal if, god forbid the F word was announced they have liven high on the hog and gotten addicted to the crack of money and lots of it and lets work alittle more and get some more crack. unity will stop that day, just wait and see. the union has no teeth when and if an open time ban is called, it will be at that point when we will see real leadership. Real leadership is only demostrated in hard times and we have not seen any at UPS, ever and not in the USA for a very long time.
line in the sand. If everyone stands tall it could well work, but there are so many under 60 types (nevermind the geezers) who rely on opentime to pay their interest only lines that under the pressure of their overpriced spouses will continue to feed and along with the airline within an airline they will find a way to furlough a couple hundred. It will be a knee-jerk by Atlanta who doesn't care that unless it's a long furlough it will ultimately cost them money...it's not so much about money with them as their departmental and often arbitrary "goals" which are most often exclusive of logic.
In a perverse way, if it has to happen it would be better for the majority if they simply park the DC-8 fleet outright. Then many of the geezers would be left waiting for training dates until they hit 65 and guys just starting out could stand a chance to keep their jobs.
09-29-2008, 08:37 AM
#55
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Originally Posted by Charlie Murphy
You say this as if it's a bad thing. I would rather put more of their money into the 45,000 and less of mine.
09-29-2008, 08:49 AM
#56
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Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Lots of accusations. The IPA did walk for two weeks during the Teamsters strike. It was lead by "the old guys".
When UPS announced the furlough of the 100, "the old guys" lead the OT ban and UPS turned face and did not furlough.
I learned from "the old guys" and am not an "old guy" in mid forties <g>.
When did you start at UPS? You are not prohibited from running for office. Immense respect for the F/O's running now. Why didn't you run this time? As a junior Capt will always defend the group, but most of us not into bashing parts of it either. Been here long enough to know that senior Capts like 757upspilot did a tremendous amount to get us where we are. His frustrations are not unique.
Our biggest failure as a union? Very few know its history. We do a poor job of teaching our history.
When UPS announced the furlough of the 100, "the old guys" lead the OT ban and UPS turned face and did not furlough.
I learned from "the old guys" and am not an "old guy" in mid forties <g>.
When did you start at UPS? You are not prohibited from running for office. Immense respect for the F/O's running now. Why didn't you run this time? As a junior Capt will always defend the group, but most of us not into bashing parts of it either. Been here long enough to know that senior Capts like 757upspilot did a tremendous amount to get us where we are. His frustrations are not unique.
Our biggest failure as a union? Very few know its history. We do a poor job of teaching our history.
) - CAL pilots just voted in health benefits for their furloughed pilots, in other words those who still have jobs are paying health insurance premiums for those who are furloughed. I think that's a great and a very noble idea.How would it work here if junior guys like myself got furloughed? Do we have any health insurance protection? If not, do you think the majority of IPA pilots would support it? ...or should we just be glad they won't be picking up open time (anymore)?
09-29-2008, 09:08 AM
#57
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Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
Salty, since the topic was breached (and I do agree with Biggs that if furloughs do happen the junior guys will never forgive the over 60 guys but they won't care anyways so what's the point? ) - CAL pilots just voted in health benefits for their furloughed pilots, in other words those who still have jobs are paying health insurance premiums for those who are furloughed. I think that's a great and a very noble idea.
How would it work here if junior guys like myself got furloughed? Do we have any health insurance protection? If not, do you think the majority of IPA pilots would support it? ...or should we just be glad they won't be picking up open time (anymore)?
) - CAL pilots just voted in health benefits for their furloughed pilots, in other words those who still have jobs are paying health insurance premiums for those who are furloughed. I think that's a great and a very noble idea.How would it work here if junior guys like myself got furloughed? Do we have any health insurance protection? If not, do you think the majority of IPA pilots would support it? ...or should we just be glad they won't be picking up open time (anymore)?
But for starters I'd vote that the geezers pay the whole tab
09-29-2008, 09:10 AM
#58
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Originally Posted by Sideshow Bob
I for one would absolutely support an assessment to pay what I assume would be the COBRA rate premiums for the current coverage...
09-29-2008, 09:43 AM
#59
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Position: UPS Captain
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Originally Posted by Biggs
Real leadership is only demostrated in hard times and we have not seen any at UPS, ever and not in the USA for a very long time.
You need to get out and enjoy life a little more. And for "God's Sake" please start using spell check (How are you gonna run for office if you cannot spell).
JUP
09-29-2008, 11:08 AM
#60
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Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
Salty, since the topic was breached (and I do agree with Biggs that if furloughs do happen the junior guys will never forgive the over 60 guys but they won't care anyways so what's the point? ) - CAL pilots just voted in health benefits for their furloughed pilots, in other words those who still have jobs are paying health insurance premiums for those who are furloughed. I think that's a great and a very noble idea.
How would it work here if junior guys like myself got furloughed? Do we have any health insurance protection? If not, do you think the majority of IPA pilots would support it? ...or should we just be glad they won't be picking up open time (anymore)?
) - CAL pilots just voted in health benefits for their furloughed pilots, in other words those who still have jobs are paying health insurance premiums for those who are furloughed. I think that's a great and a very noble idea.How would it work here if junior guys like myself got furloughed? Do we have any health insurance protection? If not, do you think the majority of IPA pilots would support it? ...or should we just be glad they won't be picking up open time (anymore)?
Will say again, barring Armageddon, UPS will not furlough. Have given the reasons over and over.
OK, Armageddon happens.
Historically, the IPA pilot group, (originally mentored by the old guys (over 60 included) have always been extraordinarily generous. Sure, the percentages often (i.e. IPA Foundation) follows the axiomatic 1/3. However, after the CBA was ratified, we (yes) IPA folks, collected the signing bonus for all the IPA folks who deceased during negotiations. This was no small amount. I assure you, the cost of COBRA fees would easily be picked up by folks with attitudes like Sideshow. Realize, that we have successfully accomplished the OT ban before. No reason to believe it would not be successful again. (Yes, some did pickup OT during ban, but it was extreme minority, and some had challenges that are extraordinary (medical etc, not third wives and toys) others that did it to pay for toys etc, ended up as supervisors.
Only fleet that really is overcrewed is the 8. It is viewed as "Hot" by UPS. We all know how they 'must have' a Hot. It covers many types of contingency scenarios.
The IPA pilot group over 60 crowd is no different than anyone else at other carriers regarding staying past 60. Many stayed in the S/O seat even before any real possibilty that the 60 legislation would happen. Certainly the percentages are higher now that they can stay front seat, but previously no one cared when they moved to the S/O seat.
We are a generous group as a whole. If Armageddon hits, the generosity will probably be more than just COBRA payments.
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