UPS Threadjack divert (777 Pay= Airbus Pay FDX)
09-28-2008, 09:37 AM
#31
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: Big Brown
Posts: 46
UPS757,
You have some good points in regards to your pay analysis. I do not disagree that junior capt's in particular got the short end of the stick in this contract.
However, you are not the only one who feels like they got screwed. I can't tell you how many times I have heard an over 60 crewmember say the junior guys stole their retirement, or if they got the same deal Fed Ex had they would be gone by now. Well, how many FedEx guys stuck around?
I hear some F/O's complain we got screwed too, 5 more years in the right seat. It is in many respects very relative to your position. Most of the folks on property understand the F/O scale was extremely out of balance and had to be fixed. The survey also indicated this. I also believe many F/O's are humbled by the fact they know their pay raise came at the expense of Capt's getting a COLA increase. No matter how you feel about the contract, it is done. We as a group must look forward to the next round of very tough negotiations against a very astute team of opponents.
My point of this rant is your comments on this board do nothing to pull our group together. Your blame of "junior" pilots (whom most come from other carriers) is hypocritical at best. The apathy around the IPA is mind numbing, but it is your type of attitude that is pushing people out rather than getting them to think and engage. In any case, look around, you are in a much better position than 99 percent of America. Rant Off.
You have some good points in regards to your pay analysis. I do not disagree that junior capt's in particular got the short end of the stick in this contract.
However, you are not the only one who feels like they got screwed. I can't tell you how many times I have heard an over 60 crewmember say the junior guys stole their retirement, or if they got the same deal Fed Ex had they would be gone by now. Well, how many FedEx guys stuck around?
I hear some F/O's complain we got screwed too, 5 more years in the right seat. It is in many respects very relative to your position. Most of the folks on property understand the F/O scale was extremely out of balance and had to be fixed. The survey also indicated this. I also believe many F/O's are humbled by the fact they know their pay raise came at the expense of Capt's getting a COLA increase. No matter how you feel about the contract, it is done. We as a group must look forward to the next round of very tough negotiations against a very astute team of opponents.
My point of this rant is your comments on this board do nothing to pull our group together. Your blame of "junior" pilots (whom most come from other carriers) is hypocritical at best. The apathy around the IPA is mind numbing, but it is your type of attitude that is pushing people out rather than getting them to think and engage. In any case, look around, you are in a much better position than 99 percent of America. Rant Off.
09-28-2008, 11:34 AM
#32
Banned
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 245
Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
No I don’t understand it because I don’t believe it. Just check the retirements at all airlines since the new legislation – with a very few exceptions the retirements have pretty much stopped.
Have you met one captain who seriously wants to retire at 60? Is that your plan? Because if so, you’re the very first captain I’ve ‘talked’ to here at Big Brown who seriously wants to leave at 60.
Can you tell me why you think most captains won’t hang around after 60? Many will say that they ‘probably’ will retire at 60 but I say no freakin’ way. Why would they?
They are at the very top of the pay scale, have the best schedules and enjoy tons of vacation time – why would they retire? It just wouldn’t be logical to retire and therefore they won’t!
I flew with a junior captain who predicted that most pilots will stay until 63 (at the very least) and then will try to use medical leave of absence for the last 2 years or so. I think he’s right on the money.
...and as far as the rest of your comment, I AM looking beyond the rest of my nose and that's why I posted my question to you which you dismissed with a simple "...As I thought the junior guys ready to grab some more because the "deserve " it..."
Have you met one captain who seriously wants to retire at 60? Is that your plan? Because if so, you’re the very first captain I’ve ‘talked’ to here at Big Brown who seriously wants to leave at 60.
Can you tell me why you think most captains won’t hang around after 60? Many will say that they ‘probably’ will retire at 60 but I say no freakin’ way. Why would they?
They are at the very top of the pay scale, have the best schedules and enjoy tons of vacation time – why would they retire? It just wouldn’t be logical to retire and therefore they won’t!
I flew with a junior captain who predicted that most pilots will stay until 63 (at the very least) and then will try to use medical leave of absence for the last 2 years or so. I think he’s right on the money.
...and as far as the rest of your comment, I AM looking beyond the rest of my nose and that's why I posted my question to you which you dismissed with a simple "...As I thought the junior guys ready to grab some more because the "deserve " it..."
I agree with you.
If guys well over 60 are coming back from the dead, I don't see anybody leaving as they turn 60. A friend that has been here since '88 told me how he would leave as soon as he turns 60 in a few years, is now telling me he is intending to stay past 60.
People can talk all they want, but when the time comes and they see $$$$$, they ain't gonna walk away.
Since age 65 came into effect, I've moved up about 3 numbers, but that's from guys dying.
Greed a powerful force.
Last edited by SLPII; 09-28-2008 at 11:43 AM.
09-28-2008, 11:59 AM
#33
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: Big Brown
Posts: 46
C'mon Please,
The debate over age 65 and the current contract are over. I was vocal against age 65 before the law changed, but it changed. The focus is not about greed anymore it is the law.
I was vocal against this contract, it passed, move on.
We are killing each other but we are supposed to be on the same team. The key now, it seems to me, is to create a forum to improve our current contract on the next go around. The people going to the table will need our support. We all have our agenda, but please consider what is the best for the group as a whole. This back and forth over dead issues is completely useless.
The debate over age 65 and the current contract are over. I was vocal against age 65 before the law changed, but it changed. The focus is not about greed anymore it is the law.
I was vocal against this contract, it passed, move on.
We are killing each other but we are supposed to be on the same team. The key now, it seems to me, is to create a forum to improve our current contract on the next go around. The people going to the table will need our support. We all have our agenda, but please consider what is the best for the group as a whole. This back and forth over dead issues is completely useless.
09-28-2008, 01:08 PM
#34
New ride...
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Posts: 534
Originally Posted by turkeydrvr
C'mon Please,
The debate over age 65 and the current contract are over. I was vocal against age 65 before the law changed, but it changed. The focus is not about greed anymore it is the law.
I was vocal against this contract, it passed, move on.
We are killing each other but we are supposed to be on the same team. The key now, it seems to me, is to create a forum to improve our current contract on the next go around. The people going to the table will need our support. We all have our agenda, but please consider what is the best for the group as a whole. This back and forth over dead issues is completely useless.
The debate over age 65 and the current contract are over. I was vocal against age 65 before the law changed, but it changed. The focus is not about greed anymore it is the law.
I was vocal against this contract, it passed, move on.
We are killing each other but we are supposed to be on the same team. The key now, it seems to me, is to create a forum to improve our current contract on the next go around. The people going to the table will need our support. We all have our agenda, but please consider what is the best for the group as a whole. This back and forth over dead issues is completely useless.
Amen! Well said!
09-28-2008, 01:13 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
Originally Posted by SPDBOILER
I can't believe you all are still debating the last contract. It is a done deal, has been for several years, and you can't go back and change the past. I would think you all would be thinking about the future. Here's something to think about. Regardless of how you perceive your last contract, I bet your next one will not be as good. I would suggest you all need to learn how to play nice together, get that group of yahoo's you call a union to start leading by example, and stop bickering about bs like age 65 and a past contract.
09-28-2008, 01:14 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
Originally Posted by MaydayMark
I have no idea what will happen at UPS but at FedEx it seems as if most pilots are staying past 60? I have no idea why? It doesn't make any sense to me?
Mark
Mark
Here's my previous take on over 60 guys staying:
"Can you tell me why you think most captains won’t hang around after 60? Many will say that they ‘probably’ will retire at 60 but I say no freakin’ way. Why would they?
They are at the very top of the pay scale, have the best schedules and enjoy tons of vacation time – why would they retire? It just wouldn’t be logical to retire and therefore they won’t!"
Mark - if you say you'll leave at 60 you're kidding yourself - you'll stay past 60 just like the majority of over 60 guys.
However, for the sake of the discussion let's keep this debate focused on the next contract and what we should be asking for versus the age 60 law which we can't do anything about anyways...
Last edited by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE; 09-28-2008 at 01:24 PM. Reason: clarification
09-28-2008, 01:59 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: 757/767
Posts: 579
Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
"...Someday the pilots that got the pay bump are going to figure out how much damage they did to themselves..."
757upspilot - can you please explain what you mean by that?
Start off by not saying "FO pay was raised."
Instead say that the longevity pay was raised for years 2-8, and remained the same for years 9-retire (roughly stated). There is a point, where even after accounting for the time value of money, that more money later for more years is more advantageous than more money sooner.
However, like age 65, it's a done deal, and time to move on.
09-28-2008, 06:39 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
Originally Posted by Roberto
I'm not a 757 pilot (wish I was) but I'll offer an explanation.
Start off by not saying "FO pay was raised."
Instead say that the longevity pay was raised for years 2-8, and remained the same for years 9-retire (roughly stated). There is a point, where even after accounting for the time value of money, that more money later for more years is more advantageous than more money sooner.
However, like age 65, it's a done deal, and time to move on.
Start off by not saying "FO pay was raised."
Instead say that the longevity pay was raised for years 2-8, and remained the same for years 9-retire (roughly stated). There is a point, where even after accounting for the time value of money, that more money later for more years is more advantageous than more money sooner.
However, like age 65, it's a done deal, and time to move on.
) but wouldn't you say that your statement depends very much on how many years a pilot has left before the retirement? In other words if he/she only gets lets say 5 years as a captain than your statement wouldn't be accurate. On the other hand if someone gets 15 years in the left seat than yes, “more money later” would make sense.
What I was saying is that, in my view, now that we've reached the 70% FO to CA pay ratio that ratio should be locked in and not lowered again. We should now negotiate captain pay rates only and adjust the FO pay accordingly to that ratio. Do you agree with that notion?
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