FDX-Air Prostitute Award-Nominations ?
02-19-2009, 08:08 AM
#81
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: 727 Captain
Posts: 205
I think we have similar points of view here.
It goes to my point of being "Reasonable". If we have enough guys doing the work of 2 pilots, then we are all going to be in trouble, junior and not so junior alike.
RLG has always paid less than BLG. If you were not interested in making an issue out of that difference a year ago, I think it lacks relevance now. A junior pilot is happy as a clam getting RLG, because it beats selling loafers in the mall. Any other reserve bidding pilot is there because he chose to be there.
When I first got here, the company kept the pilot roster very lean, and was content to pay draft and volunteer whenever they needed it. Now they don't. The company has insured itself against us with-holding our services by plussing up our ranks. The sad reality is that we are paying the monthly premiums on that insurance policy. If the language in our CBA is insufficient, and it appears it is almost every time we are tested by it, we need to be making notes for the next round of negotiations and make the changes necessary.
In the meantime, we can encourage each other to be reasonable in our exercise of our contractual rights. Just because it is legal does not mean it is the right thing to do.
It goes to my point of being "Reasonable". If we have enough guys doing the work of 2 pilots, then we are all going to be in trouble, junior and not so junior alike.
RLG has always paid less than BLG. If you were not interested in making an issue out of that difference a year ago, I think it lacks relevance now. A junior pilot is happy as a clam getting RLG, because it beats selling loafers in the mall. Any other reserve bidding pilot is there because he chose to be there.
When I first got here, the company kept the pilot roster very lean, and was content to pay draft and volunteer whenever they needed it. Now they don't. The company has insured itself against us with-holding our services by plussing up our ranks. The sad reality is that we are paying the monthly premiums on that insurance policy. If the language in our CBA is insufficient, and it appears it is almost every time we are tested by it, we need to be making notes for the next round of negotiations and make the changes necessary.
In the meantime, we can encourage each other to be reasonable in our exercise of our contractual rights. Just because it is legal does not mean it is the right thing to do.
02-19-2009, 08:14 AM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
No when we were buying up lines RLG paid BLG. And I would argue that if we have enough guys doing the work of 1.20 pilots we are also in trouble; especially the bottom 20%.
But back to your question of who is affected more. I think the guy who can reasonably anticipate (50% chance?) being furloughed in 6 months is more affected than the guy who can reasonable be expected to be excessed in 6 months.
But I think the excess guy is much more affected than the guy who is in the top 50% of his current seat and is only giving up a 10-20% paycut.
But being reasonable is certainly a good goal. I just hope my encouragement of being reasonable in the exercise of contract rights is not interpreted as "whining".
But back to your question of who is affected more. I think the guy who can reasonably anticipate (50% chance?) being furloughed in 6 months is more affected than the guy who can reasonable be expected to be excessed in 6 months.
But I think the excess guy is much more affected than the guy who is in the top 50% of his current seat and is only giving up a 10-20% paycut.
But being reasonable is certainly a good goal. I just hope my encouragement of being reasonable in the exercise of contract rights is not interpreted as "whining".
02-19-2009, 08:26 AM
#83
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: MD-11 FO
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by Popeye
Some one help out here. Oceanside11 and Herkman34 are talking about some unequal share of the burden befalling upon the junior crew members. At present, it appears that the burden, Reduced BLGs and the reduction of MBLG, is affecting all crew positions. While it seems to be in fashion to shun make up flying, can I ask what other circumstance is on the table, that is specifically targeting the junior crew members?
When a furlough appears more evident, I concur, we will need to step up to the plate and defend ourselves. But gnawing at each other because some think the sky is falling and others are trying to sustain themselves in an uncertain time, I think is counter-productive.
I made a post earlier that made reference to those that were not behaving in a reasonable manner. It is always prudent to be reasonable, in good times and in bad. If we can get most of us to do that, that would likely ease the burdens of our group. But we know that we won't change the minds of those that have only a mind for themselves.
When a furlough appears more evident, I concur, we will need to step up to the plate and defend ourselves. But gnawing at each other because some think the sky is falling and others are trying to sustain themselves in an uncertain time, I think is counter-productive.
I made a post earlier that made reference to those that were not behaving in a reasonable manner. It is always prudent to be reasonable, in good times and in bad. If we can get most of us to do that, that would likely ease the burdens of our group. But we know that we won't change the minds of those that have only a mind for themselves.
Popeye,
I have never talked about an unequal burden on junior folks. An excess bid would certainly put a burden on those junior in seat. But a furlough is about as unequal as it gets and the junior folks will bear the brunt of it. The sky is not falling but it is dark and threatening. When should we do something? After an announcement is made? Isn't there something we could do to help make sure that announcement never comes? It's a difference of being proactive vs reactive. There are things beyond our control....like the economy, price of oil, etc. But there are some things we can affect.
Food for thought.
Last edited by Oceanside11; 02-19-2009 at 10:07 AM. Reason: typo
02-19-2009, 08:45 AM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
What is the definition of junior? When I think of helping a junior guy with lower BLGs...I , personally,am ONLY thinking of guys that may be put on the street.
I feel very little sympathy for a "junior" guy that is flying in a higher paying position than most of his peers. Peers, being guys with his relative seniority. Am I supposed to feel bad for a guy that is junior in his widebody Cap seat..but, makes 50% more/hr than his contemporaries that are still in the right seat? Or, 17% more than his contemporaries still in the 727 Cap seat? Or, whatever seat disparity you want.
I don't consider an "out of seniority" seat holder to be working under an unequal burden.
Of course, "out of seniority" is another argument, eh?
I feel very little sympathy for a "junior" guy that is flying in a higher paying position than most of his peers. Peers, being guys with his relative seniority. Am I supposed to feel bad for a guy that is junior in his widebody Cap seat..but, makes 50% more/hr than his contemporaries that are still in the right seat? Or, 17% more than his contemporaries still in the 727 Cap seat? Or, whatever seat disparity you want.
I don't consider an "out of seniority" seat holder to be working under an unequal burden.
Of course, "out of seniority" is another argument, eh?
02-19-2009, 09:06 AM
#85
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
I'm with you, but can we hose one without hosing the other?
02-19-2009, 10:53 AM
#86
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: 777 Multi-tasker
Posts: 712
Originally Posted by Busboy
What is the definition of junior? When I think of helping a junior guy with lower BLGs...I , personally,am ONLY thinking of guys that may be put on the street.
I feel very little sympathy for a "junior" guy that is flying in a higher paying position than most of his peers. Peers, being guys with his relative seniority. Am I supposed to feel bad for a guy that is junior in his widebody Cap seat..but, makes 50% more/hr than his contemporaries that are still in the right seat? Or, 17% more than his contemporaries still in the 727 Cap seat? Or, whatever seat disparity you want.
I don't consider an "out of seniority" seat holder to be working under an unequal burden.
Of course, "out of seniority" is another argument, eh?
I feel very little sympathy for a "junior" guy that is flying in a higher paying position than most of his peers. Peers, being guys with his relative seniority. Am I supposed to feel bad for a guy that is junior in his widebody Cap seat..but, makes 50% more/hr than his contemporaries that are still in the right seat? Or, 17% more than his contemporaries still in the 727 Cap seat? Or, whatever seat disparity you want.
I don't consider an "out of seniority" seat holder to be working under an unequal burden.
Of course, "out of seniority" is another argument, eh?
We all make the best decisions we can for our particular situation, yet when the circumstances change and it turns out to be a good decision, we want to assign a label and throw rocks at them. Not sure why this is.
I'm a junior ANC Capt. I made the decision to bid Capt when my seniority at the time could hold it. Now I wouldn't be able to hold it. So how am I a bad guy that is asking for your sympathy? Don't see it. I don't fly extra, don't fly DP's, and am willing to do what it takes to keep guys on the property... I'm not sure what your point is on this post. Usually you seem to think before you push the submit button. Not sure about this one or did I miss the point. Where am I wrong?
Jag
"out of seniority seat holder" not asking for sympathy.
02-19-2009, 12:23 PM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
Originally Posted by jagplt
hmmmm... an interesting finger to point. Another label we can put on someone and ostracise them? Are we talking about the guys who bid the junior left seat when no body else wanted it, was awarded it, and has been flying his seat without complaint? That guy? The guy who got the bid within his relative seniority at the time? Now that the climate has changed, it seems he made a decision that turned out to be beneficial, because the bids have become much more senior. This was a choice that gave up quality of life that others decided not to give up. Now we have another class of pilots we can label, point to, and further divide the crew force with? Hey great idea... how unifying.
We all make the best decisions we can for our particular situation, yet when the circumstances change and it turns out to be a good decision, we want to assign a label and throw rocks at them. Not sure why this is.
I'm a junior ANC Capt. I made the decision to bid Capt when my seniority at the time could hold it. Now I wouldn't be able to hold it. So how am I a bad guy that is asking for your sympathy? Don't see it. I don't fly extra, don't fly DP's, and am willing to do what it takes to keep guys on the property... I'm not sure what your point is on this post. Usually you seem to think before you push the submit button. Not sure about this one or did I miss the point. Where am I wrong?
Jag
"out of seniority seat holder" not asking for sympathy.
We all make the best decisions we can for our particular situation, yet when the circumstances change and it turns out to be a good decision, we want to assign a label and throw rocks at them. Not sure why this is.
I'm a junior ANC Capt. I made the decision to bid Capt when my seniority at the time could hold it. Now I wouldn't be able to hold it. So how am I a bad guy that is asking for your sympathy? Don't see it. I don't fly extra, don't fly DP's, and am willing to do what it takes to keep guys on the property... I'm not sure what your point is on this post. Usually you seem to think before you push the submit button. Not sure about this one or did I miss the point. Where am I wrong?
Jag
"out of seniority seat holder" not asking for sympathy.
I didn't say you, or your peers, were bad guys asking for sympathy. And, I didn't mean to sound like I was pointing fingers at anyone that bid a seat at 100%. What I was trying to say is...I don't think the reduction in BLG was meant to save your seat. It was meant to save people's jobs. And, I have no problem with sacrificing. As long as it is to keep people off the street.
If you want to bid a seat at 100% and pick up the extra cash, in that manner...More power to you. I certainly wouldn't hold that against you. But, when we talk about the burden that the "junior" guys are carrying, or will carry...I just don't put you in the same class as the bottom of our seniority list folks.
That's all.
02-19-2009, 12:47 PM
#88
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: 727 Captain
Posts: 205
We all can sympathize with each other over the reduction in BLG. It sux, no doubt. But at the moment, we are all enduring and sharing the pain.
My issue is with the bloggers that seem to imply that we should be enduring some additional level of self-induced pain, because there is a possibility that our most junior colleagues might someday be furloughed.
When that bridge is upon us, we'll do the right thing. But for now, we should exercise our rights and privileges in the CBA in a reasonable manner. There is no need to ostracize anyone for doing what we all agreed to.
My issue is with the bloggers that seem to imply that we should be enduring some additional level of self-induced pain, because there is a possibility that our most junior colleagues might someday be furloughed.
When that bridge is upon us, we'll do the right thing. But for now, we should exercise our rights and privileges in the CBA in a reasonable manner. There is no need to ostracize anyone for doing what we all agreed to.
02-19-2009, 01:29 PM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
So pilot "C" is feeling a little uncomfortable flying his 80 hour month so the bloggers should just cut it out? Feel free to harangue the 100 hour month guys though. Got it.
My opinions are just that. Feel free to blow them off. But the company has said they only need 90% of the flying that the contract calls for. Wouldn't it be nice if we found out if that was true.
My opinions are just that. Feel free to blow them off. But the company has said they only need 90% of the flying that the contract calls for. Wouldn't it be nice if we found out if that was true.
02-19-2009, 08:04 PM
#90
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: leaning to the left
Posts: 4,184
Originally Posted by Popeye
We all can sympathize with each other over the reduction in BLG. It sux, no doubt. But at the moment, we are all enduring and sharing the pain.
My issue is with the bloggers that seem to imply that we should be enduring some additional level of self-induced pain, because there is a possibility that our most junior colleagues might someday be furloughed.
When that bridge is upon us, we'll do the right thing. But for now, we should exercise our rights and privileges in the CBA in a reasonable manner. There is no need to ostracize anyone for doing what we all agreed to.
My issue is with the bloggers that seem to imply that we should be enduring some additional level of self-induced pain, because there is a possibility that our most junior colleagues might someday be furloughed.
When that bridge is upon us, we'll do the right thing. But for now, we should exercise our rights and privileges in the CBA in a reasonable manner. There is no need to ostracize anyone for doing what we all agreed to.
What do you consider the right thing?
What is a "reasonable manner"?
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