FDX - Jul Disputed PR's
07-08-2009, 12:44 PM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: 777 Multi-tasker
Posts: 712
Originally Posted by AerisArmis
Check the training letter, he'll be in ANC real soon.
Here in ANC you're not so well hidden and it's noted. You stick out above the boardwalk quite a bit for all to see. We just need to make sure the DP history makes it on the list as well.
07-08-2009, 12:54 PM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: 777 Multi-tasker
Posts: 712
one other thing...
am I slow on the up take or have they tweaked the optimizer again for the mem to west coast pairings. From what it looks like to me they schedule you for over 8/24, which trips the extended crew rest trigger... but from what I see they put them on the end of a block or where the extended crew rest period is on your time off. Now they don't have to give you 24 hours on the west coast, they schedule a short turn on the west coast, let you exceed 8/24 and then let you cover the rest requirement's on your time... more on us, less on them.... again.
Wonder if thats a result of locking out the extended SIG group. 2 SIG guys trying to cover what 16 SIG guys use to do... but having 2 SIG guys meets the contract requirement to have input from the SIG, so it's ok... right?
ALPA ?????
am I slow on the up take or have they tweaked the optimizer again for the mem to west coast pairings. From what it looks like to me they schedule you for over 8/24, which trips the extended crew rest trigger... but from what I see they put them on the end of a block or where the extended crew rest period is on your time off. Now they don't have to give you 24 hours on the west coast, they schedule a short turn on the west coast, let you exceed 8/24 and then let you cover the rest requirement's on your time... more on us, less on them.... again.
Wonder if thats a result of locking out the extended SIG group. 2 SIG guys trying to cover what 16 SIG guys use to do... but having 2 SIG guys meets the contract requirement to have input from the SIG, so it's ok... right?
ALPA ?????
07-08-2009, 01:17 PM
#73
Proponent of Hysteria
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: 3B
Posts: 1,052
Originally Posted by golfandfly
CaptainGator,
I agree with you 100%. Great story about BC, not sure why he thought he could get away with it. Glad he got to enjoy the evening with himself. If is a guy is a nonmember that pays dues, I've got no problem with that. The non dues payer is a leach that has no problem with us paying his way. About a month or so ago there was a nonunion member going to Aghanistan and needed a vacation swap. I am a military person myself and have spent some time in that area. Also, it would have been a beneficial swap for me as well. Although I appreciate his service, I don't appreciate the fact that he has decided to take a free ride while his coworkers pay. No vacation swap for me.
You are right, these DP folks aren't helping out the team. I generally regard these folks much like a nonmember or scab. Sure, that is harsh, but they do have something in common. Their short term personal agenda effects our long term quality of life. If I were a commuter, I would particularly take notice of this month's DP design. If your line was built full of these pairings, you couldn't turn and would spend alot of time in Memphis (and I know how painful that is for some). This pairing design could be used on practically every west coast trip. It is hard to build a decent line when you need a day of rest between pairings.
I know some guys don't realize they are flying a DP. We get bombarded with union and company emails, FCIFs, etc. I tend to look at the type of trip, and it easy to determine which trips are disputed. Still, ignorance is no excuse.
I realize the union does not want to harrass DP fliers because it may be seen as an illegal job action or member coersion. I think they should send the usual email and display pairing number/date and the name of the pilot that flew it (obviously not a reserve guy that had no choice). Maybe more people would stop flying them if they were humiliated and left sitting in the corner by himself. If we refuse to do anything about it, we should simply stop the process since it doesn't work anyway. Let's just let the company schedule by hard parameters only. It just divides us more to continue our current process.
I agree with you 100%. Great story about BC, not sure why he thought he could get away with it. Glad he got to enjoy the evening with himself. If is a guy is a nonmember that pays dues, I've got no problem with that. The non dues payer is a leach that has no problem with us paying his way. About a month or so ago there was a nonunion member going to Aghanistan and needed a vacation swap. I am a military person myself and have spent some time in that area. Also, it would have been a beneficial swap for me as well. Although I appreciate his service, I don't appreciate the fact that he has decided to take a free ride while his coworkers pay. No vacation swap for me.
You are right, these DP folks aren't helping out the team. I generally regard these folks much like a nonmember or scab. Sure, that is harsh, but they do have something in common. Their short term personal agenda effects our long term quality of life. If I were a commuter, I would particularly take notice of this month's DP design. If your line was built full of these pairings, you couldn't turn and would spend alot of time in Memphis (and I know how painful that is for some). This pairing design could be used on practically every west coast trip. It is hard to build a decent line when you need a day of rest between pairings.
I know some guys don't realize they are flying a DP. We get bombarded with union and company emails, FCIFs, etc. I tend to look at the type of trip, and it easy to determine which trips are disputed. Still, ignorance is no excuse.
I realize the union does not want to harrass DP fliers because it may be seen as an illegal job action or member coersion. I think they should send the usual email and display pairing number/date and the name of the pilot that flew it (obviously not a reserve guy that had no choice). Maybe more people would stop flying them if they were humiliated and left sitting in the corner by himself. If we refuse to do anything about it, we should simply stop the process since it doesn't work anyway. Let's just let the company schedule by hard parameters only. It just divides us more to continue our current process.
This is the crux of the entire DP issue. We need to scrap this process and start over with hard parameters.
This has been debated over and over in the past, and the truth hasn't changed. The current process is broken, does not have the support of the membership, and needs to be fixed by ALPA. No way around it.
No, I do not fly DPs, I don't block my calendar and I am a member. I don't blame the SIG (even when it was fully operational), I blame the membership, but be that as it may the current process is doing more damage than good.
This single quote (highlighted above) should be a thread unto itself.
As a side note, check out some of those West Coast DPs. The company is having to split them up and deadhead pilots back and forth due to the 8 in 24 issue, even says so right in the trip notes. Wonder how much we're wasting in DH tickets to allow schedules to destroy the bidpack with these ridiculous pairings. Talk about spending a dollar to save a dime.
07-08-2009, 03:16 PM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,433
Originally Posted by jagplt
one other thing...
am I slow on the up take or have they tweaked the optimizer again for the mem to west coast pairings. From what it looks like to me they schedule you for over 8/24, which trips the extended crew rest trigger... but from what I see they put them on the end of a block or where the extended crew rest period is on your time off. Now they don't have to give you 24 hours on the west coast, they schedule a short turn on the west coast, let you exceed 8/24 and then let you cover the rest requirement's on your time... more on us, less on them.... again.
Wonder if thats a result of locking out the extended SIG group. 2 SIG guys trying to cover what 16 SIG guys use to do... but having 2 SIG guys meets the contract requirement to have input from the SIG, so it's ok... right?
ALPA ?????
am I slow on the up take or have they tweaked the optimizer again for the mem to west coast pairings. From what it looks like to me they schedule you for over 8/24, which trips the extended crew rest trigger... but from what I see they put them on the end of a block or where the extended crew rest period is on your time off. Now they don't have to give you 24 hours on the west coast, they schedule a short turn on the west coast, let you exceed 8/24 and then let you cover the rest requirement's on your time... more on us, less on them.... again.
Wonder if thats a result of locking out the extended SIG group. 2 SIG guys trying to cover what 16 SIG guys use to do... but having 2 SIG guys meets the contract requirement to have input from the SIG, so it's ok... right?
ALPA ?????
07-08-2009, 03:17 PM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 193
[quote=jagplt;641515]one other thing...
am I slow on the up take or have they tweaked the optimizer again for the mem to west coast pairings. From what it looks like to me they schedule you for over 8/24, which trips the extended crew rest trigger... but from what I see they put them on the end of a block or where the extended crew rest period is on your time off. Now they don't have to give you 24 hours on the west coast, they schedule a short turn on the west coast, let you exceed 8/24 and then let you cover the rest requirement's on your time... more on us, less on them.... again.
Wonder if thats a result of locking out the extended SIG group. 2 SIG guys trying to cover what 16 SIG guys use to do... but 2 SIG guys meets the contract requirement to have input from the SIG, so it's ok... right?
ALPA ?????[/quote
Where have you been? You can't fly through space on fractions, man!
am I slow on the up take or have they tweaked the optimizer again for the mem to west coast pairings. From what it looks like to me they schedule you for over 8/24, which trips the extended crew rest trigger... but from what I see they put them on the end of a block or where the extended crew rest period is on your time off. Now they don't have to give you 24 hours on the west coast, they schedule a short turn on the west coast, let you exceed 8/24 and then let you cover the rest requirement's on your time... more on us, less on them.... again.
Wonder if thats a result of locking out the extended SIG group. 2 SIG guys trying to cover what 16 SIG guys use to do... but 2 SIG guys meets the contract requirement to have input from the SIG, so it's ok... right?
ALPA ?????[/quote
Where have you been? You can't fly through space on fractions, man!
Last edited by Piloto Noche; 07-08-2009 at 03:26 PM. Reason: YGBSM ... again
07-08-2009, 04:09 PM
#76
Trust but Verify!!
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: MD11 CRA
Posts: 684
Originally Posted by FXDX
...
This has been debated over and over in the past, and the truth hasn't changed. The current process is broken, does not have the support of the membership, and needs to be fixed by ALPA. ....
This has been debated over and over in the past, and the truth hasn't changed. The current process is broken, does not have the support of the membership, and needs to be fixed by ALPA. ....
07-08-2009, 04:59 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 777 F/O
Posts: 340
Originally Posted by FreightDawgyDog
On the contrary, I think the membership at large does support this process. What it does not support is the mealy mouthed response of the union to those that choose to fly DP's. The fact that there is no negative recourse to discourage free agents from cherry picking these trips to fill their schedules past the 4a2b limits everyone else is stuck with is what is not supported. Isn't it ironic that 4a2b was brought on by keeping the over 60 pilots and they are flying more than half of the MD-11 Capt DP's last time I checked. Sadly the rest of the Capt DP fliers are in the 80% to 100% seniority bracket. What's broken is not the SIG working their aces off every month to try and keep our schedules safe, it's allowing their work to be given the middle finger by a small group of selfish pilots who use this process to screw the rest of us and make more money with no recrimination. God knows what our schedules would be like if the SIG wasn't there every month fighting for us. Hats off to those that sacrifice time from their families to do that job. I look forward to the day that your union leadership finds more effective ways to back you up..
Those that say the process will work if we support are missing the reality that WE don't support it. I support it, you may support it, but WE don't. Simple as that.
As a side note referencing the current month MD-11 DPs, when do we do our 8-24 rest on the back end of STN, VCP, FRA, CDG, KIX trips? (Yes we have over 8/10 capture to feed the wallet) On our time off? I think we are in trouble in regard to these trips, whether they are flown or not unless an Enders report or like surfaces soon. Just thoughts.
07-08-2009, 05:57 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,224
onetime,
I agree with you to some extent. At the present, the current process only tends to make us angry at each other. I can't understand the lowlifes that fly them, these are the same scum that will cross a picket line. They don't understand that if we work together, we have ALL of the negotiation capital. If we don't fly the trips, they assign them to reserves. The company is carrying few reserves and can't fill all of the trips. The company resorts to draft, or worse, packages don't move. And, that is when the problem gets fixed. Right now they know they can serve us any $hit sandwich and we'll choke down everyone of them....
You mention STN, KIX, etc. These pairings are worth a minimum of 17+30 hours, some considerably more. The two day versions are hard to commute to, but normally are very highly sought after. You can work a line of STN or VCP and work 2 days a week. You can't back to back these West coast trips and will take 3 full days for 16 hours of pay (which won't be trip rigged since they are two separate trips with 24 hours off between them). Make sense? My explanation stinks, but if you think enough about a line full of these trips vs a VCP or STN line you get the picture.
I am for publishing a list of DP flyers in the AOC and on ALPA emails. They can hide their schedules, but they can't hide from this acknowledgement. Some guys won't care, but it would help a few work with the team. For the guys that keep flying them, treat them as a scab or nonmember since they are sacrificing our longterm quality of life with their short term selfishness. The list needs to be from the union. I could see the company going after guys that try this on their own.
On a different front, the company decided this month to chop up the reserve lines into small blocks. I guess they don't like to pay 1 in 7. This also makes if very difficult for commuters. They have had several longer trips come up into open time late at night that they have needed to split up to get a reserve to fly it. This adds deadheads to at least two pairings which cost money. Again, it seems like they are spending dollars to save nickels....
I agree with you to some extent. At the present, the current process only tends to make us angry at each other. I can't understand the lowlifes that fly them, these are the same scum that will cross a picket line. They don't understand that if we work together, we have ALL of the negotiation capital. If we don't fly the trips, they assign them to reserves. The company is carrying few reserves and can't fill all of the trips. The company resorts to draft, or worse, packages don't move. And, that is when the problem gets fixed. Right now they know they can serve us any $hit sandwich and we'll choke down everyone of them....
You mention STN, KIX, etc. These pairings are worth a minimum of 17+30 hours, some considerably more. The two day versions are hard to commute to, but normally are very highly sought after. You can work a line of STN or VCP and work 2 days a week. You can't back to back these West coast trips and will take 3 full days for 16 hours of pay (which won't be trip rigged since they are two separate trips with 24 hours off between them). Make sense? My explanation stinks, but if you think enough about a line full of these trips vs a VCP or STN line you get the picture.
I am for publishing a list of DP flyers in the AOC and on ALPA emails. They can hide their schedules, but they can't hide from this acknowledgement. Some guys won't care, but it would help a few work with the team. For the guys that keep flying them, treat them as a scab or nonmember since they are sacrificing our longterm quality of life with their short term selfishness. The list needs to be from the union. I could see the company going after guys that try this on their own.
On a different front, the company decided this month to chop up the reserve lines into small blocks. I guess they don't like to pay 1 in 7. This also makes if very difficult for commuters. They have had several longer trips come up into open time late at night that they have needed to split up to get a reserve to fly it. This adds deadheads to at least two pairings which cost money. Again, it seems like they are spending dollars to save nickels....
07-08-2009, 11:35 PM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: 777 Multi-tasker
Posts: 712
[quote=Piloto Noche;641614]
huh?
Well I watched a few of these unturnable pairings out of MEM in Jun, then a few more in Jul... no telling how many in Aug.. company loves them, you absorb the cost of the longer required crew rest, and with lower BLGs no chance of exceeding min day's off like before.
For those of you thinking I'm slamming the SIG, think again.. big SIG supporter here... what I'd like to see is the entire SIG working on the pairings, not just the 2 guys the company uses to keep the pairings from being in violation of the FAR's. That's about all 2 guys can physically do for all the tracts with all the pairings in each one. A question some may ask is why are we helping screen the pairings for FAR violations for the company? They have locked out the SIG as we knew it, the ones that worked the lines for us... so why bail them out on the violations?
Just asking the questions...
and my e mail address is very current with ALPA.
Originally Posted by jagplt
one other thing...
am I slow on the up take or have they tweaked the optimizer again for the mem to west coast pairings. From what it looks like to me they schedule you for over 8/24, which trips the extended crew rest trigger... but from what I see they put them on the end of a block or where the extended crew rest period is on your time off. Now they don't have to give you 24 hours on the west coast, they schedule a short turn on the west coast, let you exceed 8/24 and then let you cover the rest requirement's on your time... more on us, less on them.... again.
Wonder if thats a result of locking out the extended SIG group. 2 SIG guys trying to cover what 16 SIG guys use to do... but 2 SIG guys meets the contract requirement to have input from the SIG, so it's ok... right?
ALPA ?????[/quote
Where have you been? You can't fly through space on fractions, man!
am I slow on the up take or have they tweaked the optimizer again for the mem to west coast pairings. From what it looks like to me they schedule you for over 8/24, which trips the extended crew rest trigger... but from what I see they put them on the end of a block or where the extended crew rest period is on your time off. Now they don't have to give you 24 hours on the west coast, they schedule a short turn on the west coast, let you exceed 8/24 and then let you cover the rest requirement's on your time... more on us, less on them.... again.
Wonder if thats a result of locking out the extended SIG group. 2 SIG guys trying to cover what 16 SIG guys use to do... but 2 SIG guys meets the contract requirement to have input from the SIG, so it's ok... right?
ALPA ?????[/quote
Where have you been? You can't fly through space on fractions, man!
Well I watched a few of these unturnable pairings out of MEM in Jun, then a few more in Jul... no telling how many in Aug.. company loves them, you absorb the cost of the longer required crew rest, and with lower BLGs no chance of exceeding min day's off like before.
For those of you thinking I'm slamming the SIG, think again.. big SIG supporter here... what I'd like to see is the entire SIG working on the pairings, not just the 2 guys the company uses to keep the pairings from being in violation of the FAR's. That's about all 2 guys can physically do for all the tracts with all the pairings in each one. A question some may ask is why are we helping screen the pairings for FAR violations for the company? They have locked out the SIG as we knew it, the ones that worked the lines for us... so why bail them out on the violations?
Just asking the questions...
and my e mail address is very current with ALPA.
07-08-2009, 11:52 PM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: A300CAP
Posts: 479
Originally Posted by golfandfly
onetime,
I agree with you to some extent. At the present, the current process only tends to make us angry at each other. I can't understand the lowlifes that fly them, these are the same scum that will cross a picket line. They don't understand that if we work together, we have ALL of the negotiation capital. If we don't fly the trips, they assign them to reserves. The company is carrying few reserves and can't fill all of the trips. The company resorts to draft, or worse, packages don't move. And, that is when the problem gets fixed. Right now they know they can serve us any $hit sandwich and we'll choke down everyone of them....
I agree with you to some extent. At the present, the current process only tends to make us angry at each other. I can't understand the lowlifes that fly them, these are the same scum that will cross a picket line. They don't understand that if we work together, we have ALL of the negotiation capital. If we don't fly the trips, they assign them to reserves. The company is carrying few reserves and can't fill all of the trips. The company resorts to draft, or worse, packages don't move. And, that is when the problem gets fixed. Right now they know they can serve us any $hit sandwich and we'll choke down everyone of them....
I am for publishing a list of DP flyers in the AOC and on ALPA emails. They can hide their schedules, but they can't hide from this acknowledgement.
On a different front, the company decided this month to chop up the reserve lines into small blocks. I guess they don't like to pay 1 in 7. This also makes if very difficult for commuters. They have had several longer trips come up into open time late at night that they have needed to split up to get a reserve to fly it. This adds deadheads to at least two pairings which cost money. Again, it seems like they are spending dollars to save nickels....
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