The comments will reportedly be generic in nature and screened from all identifying data, so, hard to figure out how the company could know who to discipline for violating sterile cockpit, not that anyone at FedEx would ever do anything so heinous.
Should they do so, seems like it would be a slam dunk grievance with the verbiage in the MOU.

AFW MD11. Pretty much all of my trips have a much greater rest period than required by the contract. Must suck to be you. A few of my trips approach the contractual duty limits, but most are a few hours below the maximum scheduld duty time.

Sure would be great if some LOSA trips occurred during an operational emergency. Odds are low though. I'd be willing to bet the company would avoid the possibility of any LOSA flights during PEAK.

I just wish all of the crews would operate to their limits during an Operational Emergency. Just because it's legal and contractual to extend me to FAR beyond contractual numbers, doesn't mean that I'm willing to do so. Nor do I feel an obligation to do so just because it's "permitted" in the contract. Permitted is not the same as required

 

That is some wise advice. I hope we all take it to heart, for safety's sake.

Unfortunately, I think some believe it's o.k. to operate in a zombie like state during an operational emergency. They must think they can't have two emergencies at once (operational and aircraft).

 

I can understand your frustration. I would suggest reading the latest union email, Negotiations Update 10-01, as they say it better than I can.

This is my third airline, and the other two were smaller and had all these safety programs. I was, and still am shocked that FedEx doesn't have these programs. Things must change around here. This is the first step, change isn't easy and is harder for some.

 

Guys, I am as frustrated and fed up with the company's b.s. as much as anyone else. However, I don't think that this safety program is where we should be drawing the line. If anything, this is where some light can be shined on what's going on. Safety should be politics neutral (don't throw Enders in my face, I know, I know)...

As far as operational emergencies go....does it mean I am less tired because it's now an "emergency"? Is it an "emergency" just because they have thinned out the reserves and standbys too much? F that...I don't think so. If you're looking for somewhere to draw the line re:safety, this is it, not LOSA.

"Gee, I was about to go fatigued...but since you said it's an EMERGENCY, I guess I'm now safe to operate." REALLY???

 

Light was already shone on our operations years ago by the Enders report but you can see by the Flight 80 accident that our management just doesn't get it, and I don't think they ever will. As long as PC insists upon the ability to use a safety report as the basis or supporting document for disciplinary action, we will never have the necesssary safety culture at the company.

Did you read the negotiations update where it indicates the company will let us read LOSA results only after we sign a non-disclosure agreement? I'm fine with that...just as I'm fine with signing a non-disclosure agreement on the Enders report too.

I say NO to LOSA until they publish the Enders report. We don't need any more studies, we've already been studied! Hey ALPA: tell them to publish the Enders report and let's resolve whatever was identified in there, first.

 

I certainly understand your frustration over the Enders report. I think it is a joke too that it was not shared.

But, let me get this straight. You feel like there should be a change here at the company. The union and company have an agreement that will hopefully start to bring change. But you plan to debate with your Captain that they shouldn't do an observation ride in the interest of Safety because we haven't seen the Enders report. If that is really the case, then you are as guilty as the company in not moving forward.

I would imagine if you look at observations from the LOSA and Enders, they may very well show the same stuff, but if this is what it takes to get change around this place, then I am all for it. The Union negotiated this as an agreement, if we don't participate, what does that say about us as a pilot group.

Someone else mentioned it, safety should not be political.

This place doesn't change easily, they like to control. That is part of the culture. As I said, change doesn't come easy for some.

 

If your'e Fatigued.......make the call. THAT's the only way things will change. Besides the 1st page in the FOM clearly states that we are Professionally and Ethically bound to do so in the interest of the #1 stated priority......Safety.

 

"But, let me get this straight. You feel like there should be a change here at the company. The union and company have an agreement that will hopefully start to bring change. But you plan to debate with your Captain that they shouldn't do an observation ride in the interest of Safety because we haven't seen the Enders report. If that is really the case, then you are as guilty as the company in not moving forward."

Safety is not the issue here. The issue, is using the only tools that are available to us to effect a change in management behavior. It falls into the same category as flying extra during times like now, when the company is taking advantage of us with 4a2b.

"I would imagine if you look at observations from the LOSA and Enders, they may very well show the same stuff, but if this is what it takes to get change around this place, then I am all for it."

I disagree that these LOSAs will effect change. They will be data gathering tools but we've done this data gathering before and nothing has changed. Basaed upon management's past behavior, why do you think this will change the way management does anything?

"The Union negotiated this as an agreement, if we don't participate, what does that say about us as a pilot group."

It says two things. First, if they want our trust and support, the Union should make concessions with management only after understanding how the field thinks about it. It indicates the Union has not changed the milktoast way it deals with management--they should have been the ones to say NO until the Enders report is released.

I think the attitude that "the union negotiated it therefore it must be blindly suported" is VERY, VERY wrong! Are you happy that our Union negotiated away pay protection when trips are dropped for training, and are you happy they never told us about that? Are you happy the scheduling grid penalty got so watered down that it is now worthless?

No, I'm not a lemming who is going to blindly follow the Union any more. Management knows a lot of our pilots have that attitude and they manpiulate us with us. We will never get what we deserve (in this case, the release of the Enders report) with that attitude.

 

You are EXACTLY right!

But, knowing that our schedules are fatiguing in nature, why don't more pilots make that fatigue call?

What is it that causes us to gut it out and rely on our fellow pilots to carry us? especially when they're probably just as tired as we are?

If YOU're tired, it is more likely than not that the other pilot(s) on your crew are too.

so....why? why do we continue to do it??

 

I flew with an f/o that, when he called in fatigued from HKG, was taken off his trip. He was then d/h'd back to MEM to explain to his ACP why he wasn't properly rested for his trip!*?

Maybe that's why? That despite all the "lip-service" about safety, there's ALWAYS the threat of discipline!*? Talk all you want about union/management Safety Management Systems ... our management is hard-wired to dole out punishment at every turn.

It's really disappointing