Airline Pilot Central Forums - China Southern so cheap they wont deice

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Originally Posted by sunburn (Post 1331211)

Well nothing more fun that being held hostage to a flight crew that doesnt think physics applies to them. During the recent snow storm in NRT, I was deadheading out on China Southern flt 386. We boarded and had a clean wing, but soon started to accumulate. From boarding to takeoff, was approx 2hr and the company never deiced. I was sure we were going to get squirted at the end of the runway but the pilot whipped onto the runway and immeadiately pushed up the power. I would estimate we had 2inches of clutter on the wings on takeoff roll. At 10000 ft we still had 20% of the wing covered with ice. See links for photos. First one was about 60 minutes before takeoff when he configured. By takeoff it was 2 to 3 times as thick. Second picture is during climbout after about 10minutes.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/...psa47fccd5.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/...psee32e5b1.jpg

I know Fedex wants to save money on airfares, but this was outright dangerous, and I feel lucky to be alive. There were four fedex crewmembers on board this flight that might not have been here if Boeing hadn't made such an awesome wing on their 737. I've filed a ops report as have several of the other guys, I just hope we stop using these guys. Pl

Am I the only one thinking- Man, we have been wasting a huge amount of money and time on this whole deicing business- after seeing this? I saw that Russian Airbus video a few months ago, and now this. ***? I thought something like one-one-millionth of a centimeter of frost can reduce your lift by 800%. Maybe the deicing fluid industry is in bed with the FAA? Screw it, I'm not wasting any more time at the deice pad ever again. I'm going 'Chinese Style'!

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Originally Posted by Dashdog (Post 1340664)

Is "Chinese Style" the same as Air Florida style?:eek:

MG2

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacGuy2 (Post 1340710)

Is "Chinese Style" the same as Air Florida style?:eek:

MG2

There was alot more wrong with Palm 90 than just skipping the 2nd deice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dashdog (Post 1340664)

I'm glad Boeing and Airbus wings are so robust, but if this was a CRJ, you would've been front-page news.

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Originally Posted by N9373M (Post 1340732)

There was alot more wrong with Palm 90 than just skipping the 2nd deice.

Correct. The real problem wasn't ice on the wings, it was ice on the EPR probes due to the crew not turning on engine anti-ice. Actual thrust at T/O was something like 60%. Ice on the wings didn't help.

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Originally Posted by Dashdog (Post 1340948)

Between the power setting mentioned above and the MD-80 wing having issues, we have waaay too many procedures and derivatives of fluid formulas. Common sense, what? no! We need to deice every single aircraft with type IV safeco double deluxe industrial hold anytime Ewins says there could be a 5 minute delay due to frost for the night sort........and fly into the sort no matter what, even if there is 6 inches of clear ice in the forecast.....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

I work in Japan, not China mind you but I do fly in and out of China a lot. For what I have seen (and I couldn't care less, not defending anybody) airlines in China tend to be way too conservative in terms of their de-icing, I have seen them de ice even when there is no need to. I have a feeling there is a problem with this particular crew and not necessarily with the company's safety culture per say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dashdog (Post 1340948)

The problem in this instance was a crew unfamiliar with icing conditions, who did a reverse thrust power back out of the gate and covered the engine probes with ice. They therefore had erroneously high EPR indications resulting in far reduced power settings. The first officer mentioned it twice on the roll but was ignored by the captain. Perfectly good jet hits the 14th Ave, bridge because crew were unfamiliar with deicing and departure procedures in icing conditions.

You have to wonder, with respect to CZ, what else they miss because they obviously do not understand the physics behind flying airplanes. Typical push button mentality of these fly-by-night airlines.

So, does ALPA have any input into what carriers we deadhead on? Isn't safety our number one priority (or is it VEBA, I get confused sometimes).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dashdog (Post 1340664)

Leading edge devices are wonderful things, especially when they are heated.

add Aeroflot to your list.. when I was at Gemini we had a few airlines on our no-fly list, and those were two... As a side note, I flew into Almaty Kazakstan quite a bit and they'd always look at us strange when we wanted to de-ice our 747's when they had some frost on the wings... some would actually try to argue we didn't need it... sigh.