Atlas Crew Lands Dreamlifter Wrong Airport
11-24-2013 | 11:11 PM
#211
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,208
Likes: 49
From: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
One of quite a few. Yet we managed (Flt. and Cabin Crew) found the right airports, and RUNWAY.
Yeah we've all been in crap holes from sand box locations to Africa. At least in those necks of the world, little chance of landind at the wrong airport as they are rather scarce.
Other than incompasitation by both cremembers, I can't understand how one with in a modern jet with operable Navs, Comms, ATC radar for assistance, if vectors are requested, and thorough briefings could land at the wrong airport. You know, ATC, if in doubt, TOGA is always available during the approach. No TOGA? Push the thrust levers forward, get away from the ground, find a piece of the sky to hold. Catch ones breath, regroup, and rebrief.
I agree ATC. I too would like an honest account as too the links in the chain that broke which lead to loss of situational awareness, ultimate reliance on following the magenta line. Not to air one's dirty laundry, but what others flying modern aged GPS, FMC equipped jets can do to maintain awareness of the situation and location.
As for ASAP? If your company has a good ERC, and an understanding POI, then it can be better than the old NASA report. I've been on the equivelent of ERCs in Europe. Some hid behind the apron strings of such programs rather than utilizing them for their full potential.
ATC, my career biographer, you are not. Some day we can compare notes about the 6 continents we've flown in and out of, and look back and wonder how we survived despite ourselves.
Anyway ATC... Hopefully this recent event will help us and those who we both fly with maintain proper crew disciplines and situational awareness.
Safe journeys ATC
As Atlas pilots, I know they have been in some real crapholes and crap conditions as well. So don't pat yourself on the back too hard.
I suspect you have no real insight or facts about what happened unless you have a direct line to the crew. Otherwise you are like everyone else...reading the funnies and armchair quarterbacking.
Which means that your pronouncements are bilge. You don't know what the union...or the company will do. Sounds like despite the fact that there was no damage or injury, you want scalps. Pretty sad. An opportunity exists for a teaching event and some like you decree via keyboard.
That's why the industry has programs like ASAP. Everyone realized that pilots ARE human and errors DO happen. And instead of your heads on pikes approach, it's better to find out if common threads exist (like multiple similar events at these airports over the years) and if the common thread can be defined, how to fix it.
I'd also suspect that a company like Atlas, who operates in more hairy places than you, understands this and is less likely to throw people under the bus like you are.
Anyway ATC... Hopefully this recent event will help us and those who we both fly with maintain proper crew disciplines and situational awareness.
Safe journeys ATC
11-25-2013 | 01:54 AM
#212
Line Holder
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,292
Likes: 2
From: 747
Perhaps this thread should be left to those of us who are human and believe themselves to be fallible and wish to learn from the mistakes of others while not passing judgement and condemnation on our fellow pilots when they are down.
It sounds to me that your idea of CRM/TRM/TEM is to fix the blame on your fellow crew member and not fix the problem as you are clearly fixing the blame on the Atlas pilots while not having anything constructive to say. What you are saying is really "THEY DIDN'T DO THINGS PERFECTLY, SO THEY SCREWED UP" and then go on to recite all of the things they did incorrectly. Thank you Captain Obvious: We all know WHAT happened.
The real question should be "WHY did this happen?" The answer to why is not "they didn't follow the procedure". The real answer will be found when we can say WHY they didn't follow the procedure.
While your state of perfection is admirable, I doubt that it truly exists. Have you NEVER made a mistake in the cockpit? Honestly? Never missed a radio call? Never read back a clearance incorrectly? Never deviated from SOP's or FAR's, ever? Never been under MDA? Never overshot a vector onto a LOC? All have the potential for trouble and all are in your book.
No I am not splitting hairs here, I am pointing out that there are only degrees of mistakes and there exists an enormous grey area between unobtainable absolute perfection and a newsworthy incident. You have never landed off centerline? I doubt it and yet I defy you to come up with an absolute number of feet off of a runway centerline that is unacceptable. Same goes for landing short or long of the touchdown zone. While we all (at least I) strive to hit the centerline in the middle of the touchdown zone on every landing, I will admit that I am off a few inches every now and then. I get away with this because the runways we typically use are long and wide, but I strive for perfection because on rare occasions, we do fly into short or narrow strips where a long or wide landing would be bad. I strive for perfection because I know I will never attain it but the effort makes me a safer pilot.
More than your unconstructive additions to this discussion, your belief in your own infallibility points to the out-of-date and dangerous mindset that you could not possibly ever do anything wrong because you "follow the book". It's not "the book" that I take issue with. It is the human that follows the book (if he is honest with himself) will fail to perform the duties in that book perfectly, every time, for their entire career.
The realization of this human limitation, and the desire to reduce it to the greatest possible degree, is what makes a pilot a professional, and a captain a worthy leader.
8
11-25-2013 | 02:25 AM
#213
La Familia Delta
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,467
Likes: 0
From: B-717 FO / C-17 AC
This particular airport isnt in the FMC database for my company's 747-400s because we never go there; each airline loads its own databases with the airports they fly to since the 747-400 memory is very limited unless they bought the Boeing upgrade. If the airport wasnt contained in the database they'd have to fly the approach without any FMS/FMC data (raw data ILS, for example). However I think Atlas does go to this airport alot so they probably had it.
Anyway, Im actually shocked as to how many people are trashing these guys for what happened. Its a learning experience for the rest of us, but theres no need to kick these guys while theyre down.
11-25-2013 | 02:44 AM
#215
O.T. Freight Dog
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 150
Likes: 0
From: Former 747 Captain
We are so impressed and proud of you! Good job with all the emergencies and the 38 glorious years of perfect performance in your aviation career. The rest of are clearly not perfect like you.
Perhaps this thread should be left to those of us who are human and believe themselves to be fallible and wish to learn from the mistakes of others while not passing judgement and condemnation on our fellow pilots when they are down.
It sounds to me that your idea of CRM/TRM/TEM is to fix the blame on your fellow crew member and not fix the problem as you are clearly fixing the blame on the Atlas pilots while not having anything constructive to say. What you are saying is really "THEY DIDN'T DO THINGS PERFECTLY, SO THEY SCREWED UP" and then go on to recite all of the things they did incorrectly. Thank you Captain Obvious: We all know WHAT happened.
The real question should be "WHY did this happen?" The answer to why is not "they didn't follow the procedure". The real answer will be found when we can say WHY they didn't follow the procedure.
While your state of perfection is admirable, I doubt that it truly exists. Have you NEVER made a mistake in the cockpit? Honestly? Never missed a radio call? Never read back a clearance incorrectly? Never deviated from SOP's or FAR's, ever? Never been under MDA? Never overshot a vector onto a LOC? All have the potential for trouble and all are in your book.
No I am not splitting hairs here, I am pointing out that there are only degrees of mistakes and there exists an enormous grey area between unobtainable absolute perfection and a newsworthy incident. You have never landed off centerline? I doubt it and yet I defy you to come up with an absolute number of feet off of a runway centerline that is unacceptable. Same goes for landing short or long of the touchdown zone. While we all (at least I) strive to hit the centerline in the middle of the touchdown zone on every landing, I will admit that I am off a few inches every now and then. I get away with this because the runways we typically use are long and wide, but I strive for perfection because on rare occasions, we do fly into short or narrow strips where a long or wide landing would be bad. I strive for perfection because I know I will never attain it but the effort makes me a safer pilot.
More than your unconstructive additions to this discussion, your belief in your own infallibility points to the out-of-date and dangerous mindset that you could not possibly ever do anything wrong because you "follow the book". It's not "the book" that I take issue with. It is the human that follows the book (if he is honest with himself) will fail to perform the duties in that book perfectly, every time, for their entire career.
The realization of this human limitation, and the desire to reduce it to the greatest possible degree, is what makes a pilot a professional, and a captain a worthy leader.
8
Perhaps this thread should be left to those of us who are human and believe themselves to be fallible and wish to learn from the mistakes of others while not passing judgement and condemnation on our fellow pilots when they are down.
It sounds to me that your idea of CRM/TRM/TEM is to fix the blame on your fellow crew member and not fix the problem as you are clearly fixing the blame on the Atlas pilots while not having anything constructive to say. What you are saying is really "THEY DIDN'T DO THINGS PERFECTLY, SO THEY SCREWED UP" and then go on to recite all of the things they did incorrectly. Thank you Captain Obvious: We all know WHAT happened.
The real question should be "WHY did this happen?" The answer to why is not "they didn't follow the procedure". The real answer will be found when we can say WHY they didn't follow the procedure.
While your state of perfection is admirable, I doubt that it truly exists. Have you NEVER made a mistake in the cockpit? Honestly? Never missed a radio call? Never read back a clearance incorrectly? Never deviated from SOP's or FAR's, ever? Never been under MDA? Never overshot a vector onto a LOC? All have the potential for trouble and all are in your book.
No I am not splitting hairs here, I am pointing out that there are only degrees of mistakes and there exists an enormous grey area between unobtainable absolute perfection and a newsworthy incident. You have never landed off centerline? I doubt it and yet I defy you to come up with an absolute number of feet off of a runway centerline that is unacceptable. Same goes for landing short or long of the touchdown zone. While we all (at least I) strive to hit the centerline in the middle of the touchdown zone on every landing, I will admit that I am off a few inches every now and then. I get away with this because the runways we typically use are long and wide, but I strive for perfection because on rare occasions, we do fly into short or narrow strips where a long or wide landing would be bad. I strive for perfection because I know I will never attain it but the effort makes me a safer pilot.
More than your unconstructive additions to this discussion, your belief in your own infallibility points to the out-of-date and dangerous mindset that you could not possibly ever do anything wrong because you "follow the book". It's not "the book" that I take issue with. It is the human that follows the book (if he is honest with himself) will fail to perform the duties in that book perfectly, every time, for their entire career.
The realization of this human limitation, and the desire to reduce it to the greatest possible degree, is what makes a pilot a professional, and a captain a worthy leader.
8
This is absolutely the best post I have ever read on ANY of these web boards! I would be proud to fly with you anytime and anywhere sir.
FR8
11-25-2013 | 03:01 AM
#216
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,208
Likes: 49
From: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
We are so impressed and proud of you! Good job with all the emergencies and the 38 glorious years of perfect performance in your aviation career. The rest of are clearly not perfect like you.
Perhaps this thread should be left to those of us who are human and believe themselves to be fallible and wish to learn from the mistakes of others while not passing judgement and condemnation on our fellow pilots when they are down.
It sounds to me that your idea of CRM/TRM/TEM is to fix the blame on your fellow crew member and not fix the problem as you are clearly fixing the blame on the Atlas pilots while not having anything constructive to say. What you are saying is really "THEY DIDN'T DO THINGS PERFECTLY, SO THEY SCREWED UP" and then go on to recite all of the things they did incorrectly. Thank you Captain Obvious: We all know WHAT happened.
The real question should be "WHY did this happen?" The answer to why is not "they didn't follow the procedure". The real answer will be found when we can say WHY they didn't follow the procedure.
While your state of perfection is admirable, I doubt that it truly exists. Have you NEVER made a mistake in the cockpit? Honestly? Never missed a radio call? Never read back a clearance incorrectly? Never deviated from SOP's or FAR's, ever? Never been under MDA? Never overshot a vector onto a LOC? All have the potential for trouble and all are in your book.
No I am not splitting hairs here, I am pointing out that there are only degrees of mistakes and there exists an enormous grey area between unobtainable absolute perfection and a newsworthy incident. You have never landed off centerline? I doubt it and yet I defy you to come up with an absolute number of feet off of a runway centerline that is unacceptable. Same goes for landing short or long of the touchdown zone. While we all (at least I) strive to hit the centerline in the middle of the touchdown zone on every landing, I will admit that I am off a few inches every now and then. I get away with this because the runways we typically use are long and wide, but I strive for perfection because on rare occasions, we do fly into short or narrow strips where a long or wide landing would be bad. I strive for perfection because I know I will never attain it but the effort makes me a safer pilot.
More than your unconstructive additions to this discussion, your belief in your own infallibility points to the out-of-date and dangerous mindset that you could not possibly ever do anything wrong because you "follow the book". It's not "the book" that I take issue with. It is the human that follows the book (if he is honest with himself) will fail to perform the duties in that book perfectly, every time, for their entire career.
The realization of this human limitation, and the desire to reduce it to the greatest possible degree, is what makes a pilot a professional, and a captain a worthy leader.
8
Perhaps this thread should be left to those of us who are human and believe themselves to be fallible and wish to learn from the mistakes of others while not passing judgement and condemnation on our fellow pilots when they are down.
It sounds to me that your idea of CRM/TRM/TEM is to fix the blame on your fellow crew member and not fix the problem as you are clearly fixing the blame on the Atlas pilots while not having anything constructive to say. What you are saying is really "THEY DIDN'T DO THINGS PERFECTLY, SO THEY SCREWED UP" and then go on to recite all of the things they did incorrectly. Thank you Captain Obvious: We all know WHAT happened.
The real question should be "WHY did this happen?" The answer to why is not "they didn't follow the procedure". The real answer will be found when we can say WHY they didn't follow the procedure.
While your state of perfection is admirable, I doubt that it truly exists. Have you NEVER made a mistake in the cockpit? Honestly? Never missed a radio call? Never read back a clearance incorrectly? Never deviated from SOP's or FAR's, ever? Never been under MDA? Never overshot a vector onto a LOC? All have the potential for trouble and all are in your book.
No I am not splitting hairs here, I am pointing out that there are only degrees of mistakes and there exists an enormous grey area between unobtainable absolute perfection and a newsworthy incident. You have never landed off centerline? I doubt it and yet I defy you to come up with an absolute number of feet off of a runway centerline that is unacceptable. Same goes for landing short or long of the touchdown zone. While we all (at least I) strive to hit the centerline in the middle of the touchdown zone on every landing, I will admit that I am off a few inches every now and then. I get away with this because the runways we typically use are long and wide, but I strive for perfection because on rare occasions, we do fly into short or narrow strips where a long or wide landing would be bad. I strive for perfection because I know I will never attain it but the effort makes me a safer pilot.
More than your unconstructive additions to this discussion, your belief in your own infallibility points to the out-of-date and dangerous mindset that you could not possibly ever do anything wrong because you "follow the book". It's not "the book" that I take issue with. It is the human that follows the book (if he is honest with himself) will fail to perform the duties in that book perfectly, every time, for their entire career.
The realization of this human limitation, and the desire to reduce it to the greatest possible degree, is what makes a pilot a professional, and a captain a worthy leader.
8
Don't how else to respond to your response other than... Rah, Rah.
More than your unconstructive additions to this discussion, your belief in your own infallibility points to the out-of-date and dangerous mindset that you could not possibly ever do anything wrong because you "follow the book". It's not "the book" that I take issue with. It is the human that follows the book (if he is honest with himself) will fail to perform the duties in that book perfectly, every time, for their entire career.
I have to tell you Spur...I'm not infallible. That's why I conduct a thorough brief, practice CRM... not just the cockpit but the entire crew. I stress the same to my students too.
I agree ATC. I too would like an honest account as too the links in the chain that broke which lead to loss of situational awareness, ultimate reliance on following the magenta line. Not to air one's dirty laundry, but what others flying modern aged GPS, FMC equipped jets can do to maintain awareness of the situation and location.
Last edited by captjns; 11-25-2013 at 03:14 AM.
11-25-2013 | 04:27 AM
#217
VHR-very happily retired
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,436
Likes: 0
From: Retired
Allow me to interject since I'm now a high risk candidate for landing at the wrong airport. In the past year, both the airplanes I currently fly (747-400 and c-17) have landed at the wrong airport. Both airplanes have "magenta lines" and a thousand ways to back up the approach. One of them has a HUD.
The c17 was being flown by a crew of all instructors (check airman equivalent)
The Atlas 747-400 crew by default is very senior (most junior captain is 12 years or so).
So what's our takeaway? It was a bad day, we've all experienced such incredible fatigue that we swear up and down we didn't do what we just did.
The c17 was being flown by a crew of all instructors (check airman equivalent)
The Atlas 747-400 crew by default is very senior (most junior captain is 12 years or so).
So what's our takeaway? It was a bad day, we've all experienced such incredible fatigue that we swear up and down we didn't do what we just did.
11-25-2013 | 04:33 AM
#218
Layover Master
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,375
Likes: 9
From: Seated
I'm throwing all my chips in on captjns's side. He's not dangerous. He's advocating he knows he CAN make mistakes and therefore goes out of his way to mitigate those risks.
If you think, "Sure, I can totally see myself landing at the wrong airport in a modern jet, it could happen to anyone!" Then you, my friends, are just as dangerous.
It does not happen to 'anyone'.
If you think, "Sure, I can totally see myself landing at the wrong airport in a modern jet, it could happen to anyone!" Then you, my friends, are just as dangerous.
It does not happen to 'anyone'.
11-25-2013 | 04:43 AM
#219
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,304
Likes: 0
From: MD-11 Captain
11-25-2013 | 06:25 AM
#220
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,064
Likes: 37
From: 767 Captain
I'm throwing all my chips in on captjns's side. He's not dangerous. He's advocating he knows he CAN make mistakes and therefore goes out of his way to mitigate those risks.
If you think, "Sure, I can totally see myself landing at the wrong airport in a modern jet, it could happen to anyone!" Then you, my friends, are just as dangerous.
It does not happen to 'anyone'.
If you think, "Sure, I can totally see myself landing at the wrong airport in a modern jet, it could happen to anyone!" Then you, my friends, are just as dangerous.
It does not happen to 'anyone'.
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