Can you say again, with a little more clarity, what happened ? Do you know what percentage of a raise we got in the 2006 CBA at FDX? You are saying we should of held out for the UPS rates and received that much more of a raise in 06?

Basically we need to coordinate closing deals at roughly the same time so that we can have a quick tele con and make sure we are not hosing you over at the IPA? Cause that is what you are saying, or at least what I heard.

Passing of information and cooperation would be great but at the end of the day I personally believe FDX is no more comparable to a PAX carrier than it is to UPS any more. Our Company's have drastically different structures and in this game it really is every man (Union) for himself. If given the chance to swap CBA's with UPS, FDX would take that deal everyday, all day, even had you attained the rates we lost for you.

 

I would much rather go through 4a2b again than have guys get furloughed. Though I'm way too senior to have it happen to me, I've been through that before and it really sucks.

I can't imagine blaming UPS pilots for any contract concessions or lack of progress that they make, for our lack of progress in negotiations. Each union is responsible for their own pilots, and if you can't get a decent contract with a cohesive group like UPS has, you sure can't expect FedEx pilots to negotiate your contract for you.

 

Busboy destroyed that fairy tale last year, can't be said any better:

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ca...ml#post1343147

 

4A2B...

Like I keep saying..go and talk to your negotiators from last time. Or if that is too difficult, talk to WS on your negotiating cmte this time. He is familiar with the issue even if you aren't. You can believe what you want but what happened is fact. The higher rate was pulled by ups when your rate became public with the mediators. There were no "strings" attached to that rate as you suggest.

The major difference between our negotiations is that we have to negotiate with ups for what Fred gives you guys as being part of an airline (versus trucking company) as well as any advances we get in our contract. How much negotiating capital did your union expend for sleep rooms in MEM? After talking with our negotiators from last time, I would really look at your scope clause. UPS offered us a whole bunch to take your scope clause instead of the one we negotiated. You may be fine for now, but when Fred's replacement steps in, a weak scope clause is the first thing I would worry about.

JTF

Pilot7576

 

There only one reason to respond to this post. Too many people on these boards seem to find reason to blame everyone, except themselves for the (perceived) inadequacy of their working agreement. Many blame ALPA, usually national, as there own bargaining unit is victimized by "national" policies. Here we have a non ALPA competitor bannering this bull about how "we" (Fedex pilots/union) caused them to have to take an inferior offer from their employers. How convenient; both your management and union agree its Fedex pilots fault that you could have had a better pay package had those dumb Fedex pilots not "settled" for a lower number.
Well you'll get a lot of agreement that we at Fedex are not as unified as you IPA types. Of course, unsaid by many from the UPS peanut gallery, is that your company is union top to bottom outside of your craft and make up the majority of all UPS employees. At Fedex, only 4200 employees out of some 300,000 (??) employes are unionized.
So when confronted with the weak sisters down in Memphis, why did your solid, unified brothers fall on your collective sword and accept an inferior offer?? As a group you must have ratified this agreement. Where were your collective cojones? :roll eyes:

But why look back?, Yesterday is history, let's all work toward a better agreement and stop the finger pointing. We know our short comings, you can read them all over the cargo threads. We are ready to be humbly shown what the bar has been raised to by your united group. Please show us the way.

 

I'm not sure where both mgmt and union stated we could have had a better pay package. At that late point in talks, ups did withdraw their more generous offer when FEDEX released their offer...you don't have to trust what I'm saying; as I've told 4A2B, ask the negotiators. I won't argue that point with someone who refuses to check the facts.

I will agree that the past is the past and it would be helpful to coordinate our efforts (in private, not public) for the numbers issues of pay and compensation. This should be a teachable moment for both unions to build on each other's accomplishments instead of tearing each other down.

This is really all I have to say on the issue of the 2006 contracts...may both our contracts in the future be bountiful for each of our pilot groups.

Pilot7576

 

Not sure what "facts" your alluding to. I agree, on face value (I was never at a UPS union meeting) that your negotiators blamed our union for cutting you guys off at the knees. I'm sure it is "fact" they said that to you.

Finally something we can all agree on.
And I hope we can toast to a successful outcome for both pilot groups.

 

It will be though. I can't find the fleet plan anymore on PFC, but won't we be 1/3 757 in the future? That's pretty significant to me. It would be much better if we were all on the same scale like UPS.

 

Can anyone make a good argument as to why we have differential pay scales based on a/c size? I know the "old" reasoning that arose with the advent of the turbo jet age. But I really don't see that as applicable anymore.

One might argue that an MD-11 Captain produces more revenue than the B757 Captain...but is that really true? We really have no way of knowing what that revenue split is since we don't get to see behind the curtain.

Then there is the question of work. Who works harder? Like most on this board I've done my share of hub turns and pond crossings. I much prefer one long leg and a layover than a week of hub turns. I just find that easier. Some guys/gals love to hub turn to their home town or hate international flying. I think they work as hard or harder than I do...I don't think I could stand the constant "Op Emergencies" that seem to pop up on a regular basis in MEM. Dragging 2 legs into SBN after one of those is real work!

I believe the split pay scale is out dated and out-outmoded. I think most of can agree that quality of life in the end trumps just about everything except maybe money. Wouldn't it be nice to not have to chase money in lieu of QOL. Then our seniority would really mean something.

I think there is a win-win here for the company and us. After a shake out period they get stability in there training system, relative experience goes up in a fleet over time as does familiarity with the type of flying both of which improve overall safety and I believe we get to do what we really want to do (seniority allowing) vice chasing money.

The real question then becomes how much of their pay raise are the WB pilots willing to forgo to bring the NB pilots up. I don't think we can reasonably expect the same % pay raise as we would expect under split scales. This would be a factor in the next CBA but mitigated over time and by QOL improvements.

Purpledog is correct...FDX will soon be weighted more towards the 757. The efficiency of the airplane combined with its load/leg capability make it a much different animal than the 727. Its the thin routes we need to worry about...can you say large RJ? The current scope clause would force that kind of flying to be done by mainline FDX pilots...but would the company really agree to pay a CRJ900 Captain 250+/hr? Maybe that's why they don't seem interested in a single scale. Why aren't we?

Sorry for the rambling...probably need to skip posting after happy hour in DXB!

 

I agree we have significant issues to watch and work on at FDX. However my discussion with you and Lil Seinfeld was a reaction to your dual assertion of this pay rate undercut.

So in the interest of "learning" from our mistake, from your viewpoint that is, how would you guys have done it differently if you had a do over in 06? What specifically would of been the course of action that would of allowed you to retain that no strings attached pay rate? So that it does not happen again, seriously we need to know.

Lastly, I have spoken to our 06 NC on many occasion and I am fully aware of what happened from FDX ALPA side. I never disagreed that you had higher rates on the table, in fact ALPA did know about them but that did not mean they were realistic, attainable or right for our CBA package in 06.

Thanks